A strange "OIL" thing...

bigbad4cyl · Mar 13, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

if you have ever owned a porche you would know the whole oil deal.........you can feel an oil breakdown in a porche ,,,performance decreases etc.......your oil ,psi goes down ,,,,,it realy depends on how hard you drive and how long etc ......i say 3 to 5,000 sounds about right ,,,,sometimes sooner .........

trog100 · Mar 13, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

Member trog100, I fail to understand why you are arguing about the Cadillac oil change interval. You originally said it was 100,000 miles (using some special oil). You were so far wrong, that arguing now over who's information is more current seems egocentric. BTW, the information you linked was written back in 2003. ###### yes i was well wrong about that 100000 miles that was the service interval which dosnt iclude oil changes.. but the 17000 miles is accurate at least concerning that particular cadilac.. the point here being to refute the claim being made by more than one person that american oils are not as good as eurpean oils.. one assumes the cadilac mentioned would be useing american oils between its 17000 mile oil chages.. ##### You don't appear to understand that there are several Cadillac engine options that currently use the "oil life system" mentioned by tommay's 2005 publication. And they do not require a special oil like you imply. ##### of course i understand that simple fact.. i was simply pointing out that 3000 to 12000 wasnt an absolute for GM cars.. ##### Your perceived "myth" about Americans also seems to be off. Most Americans change their oil according to the manufacturer's recommendations, not every 3,000 miles. But you do make a good point that Americans have opportunities that Europeans might not, and thus are able to change their oil using a more conservative approach, or whenever they wish. ###### my percieved myth wasnt simply about americans it was about the vast majority of folks wherever they happened to live on the planet.. i own an old saab 900 classic by the way.. i used to spend a lot of time posting on the american classic saab forum.. believe u me that that 3000 figure is well and truely ingrained in american mythology.. pretty much as the 5000 mile one is ingrained in uk mythology.. ###### Environmentally, Americans re-claim and recycle their used oil on a much larger scale than Europe. It is against our laws here to dispose of oil improperly, or to "dump" it into the environment as you say. ##### either way it isnt good from the enviromental point of view to use.. dump.. recyle.. vastly more of the stuff than we need to.. ##### As for American oil and European oil being the same, I still don't think you get it. They are not the same, although I suppose your theory that they "could" be the same is worth recognizing since there could be an overlap somewhere between the two different oil rating systems. Special European oils are available in America for European autos driven here. ###### yes ##### Your perception of a European 1.4L rover having more demand on an oil than an American SUV pulling a trailer simply can't be justified. I've been to Europe and, in general, your country uses automobiles much differently. ###### yes eurpean vehicles are used/driven differently.. they do more shorter journeys.. less annual milage.. less distances covered just open raid cruiising.. they have smaller higher revving engines.. in fact every single thing about these diferences suggests europeans should be changing their oil more often than amercans not the other way around... let me put it this way.. if i was an oil i would be a far happier oil spending my ilfe in an american auto than i would a european one.. he he ##### Throughout this thread you appear to be trying to make a point. But it is unclear what that point is. ##### yes too many words do tend to obscure the point.. he he.. basically i pointed out what seemed to me an inexplicable fact.. the fact is that the average american for whatever reason seems to feel the need to change his oil more frequently than the average european.. hence my "myth" figrues of 3000 and 5000 miles which goes back a long time.. of course most things that seem unusual or odd lead to quite few people including yourself making attempts to explain away the unexplainable.. i have simply attempted to refute any arguement/explanation i didnt think was a valid one.. trog100

TheOilDoc · Mar 13, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

By trog100: the point here being to refute the claim being made by more than one person that american oils are not as good as eurpean oils..

Member trog100, if you feel American and European oils are the same, or meet the same standards, please show how. The highest oil standards come from European auto makers. There are very few American oils that will meet those European specifications. The ACEA oil program and testing standards are representative of higher quality oils. This is due, in part, to their tier rating system, more demanding testing standards, and some manufacturers setting their own high quality oil specifications. European auto oils are available in America that meet these higher standards, but they are usually specialized, hard to find, and carry a unique label specifying use for European autos. There are several publicized cases in America of owners using American API oils in European cars with extended change intervals which caused engine failure. Please reference the Mercedes fiasco.

By trog100: i was simply pointing out that 3000 to 12000 wasnt an absolute for GM cars..

Arguing the "absolute for GM cars" really wasn't the issue here. Member tommays was showing you one example where American autos have longer drain intervals than the 3,000 miles you imply Americans are force fed. It was an example of Americans letting their car tell them when to change the oil, which could be up to 12,000 miles.

By trog100: my percieved myth wasnt simply about americans it was about the vast majority of folks wherever they happened to live on the planet

This reference from your first post would appear to contradict that: "it seems that americans are told (recommended) to change their engine oils twice as often as europeans are...every 3000 miles is a common american interval"

By trog100: either way it isnt good from the enviromental point of view to use.. dump.. recyle.. vastly more of the stuff than we need to..

Either way, you were implying Americans are very wasteful... "millions of tons of the stuff is (possibly) being dumped into the american environment unnecessarally every year" Americans are very conscious about the environment. Not to mention the EPA has strict regulation for oil use in regards to the environment, both nationally and globally. Do you drive an electric car?

By trog100: if i was an oil i would be a far happier oil spending my ilfe in an american auto than i would a european one.. he he

Just have to disagree with you there. The majority of vehicles in America will be sold with a trailer hitch and a tow or off-road package. These vehicles are not only used for buzzing back and forth to work, but they litter the highways pulling and hauling large loads. Many owners add aftermarket performance enhancers. These are severe duty uses. Don't remember seeing much of that in Europe. Lots of 12-13" tires and bike racks though. BTW, what makes you think America doesn't have smaller, high revving engines that are used for short trips?

By trog100: of course most things that seem unusual or odd lead to quite few people including yourself making attempts to explain away the unexplainable.. i have simply attempted to refute any arguement/explanation i didnt think was a valid one..

Everything is explainable...if the one it's explained to is listening. But you do have a right to your opinion, however skewed. Different automobiles. Different engine designs. Different manufacturers. Different uses and operating conditions. Different oils. Different standards. Different rating systems. And lets not forget the cost of oil to Europeans...something you haven't recognized as a determining factor in your longer change interval. But really member trog100, your whole issue here is based on your belief that most Americans change their oil every 3000 miles. And that just isn't true. There are some enthusiast that do that, and some severe service conditions that require it. But in general Americans tend to follow the recommended change intervals which are very similar to your own. I think you have bigger issues in Europe than how often Americans change their oil. Your rapidly growing HIV population should be of more concern.

trog100 · Mar 13, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

well member TheOilDoc.. quite why u feel the need to address me in such a strange fashion i dont know.. but i will do u the honour of addressing u in a similar vein.. but really member TheOilDoc why are u attempting to turn this into some UK verses american thing.. why do u feel the need to defend youself and your country.. we all waste the stuff.. and when i am ask to provide statistics to back up my claims i know i am beaten.. he he let me tell u something member TheOilDoc.. why did i mention the enviroment in my first post.. one simple little reason.. if i had simply said its a strange thing that americans change their oil more often than europens do.. i know the answer i would have got.. he he he.. something along the lines of.. "well u cant change it too often now can u".. which of course leads us back to square one.. the mention of the magic word environment simply put paid to the first attempt at explaining the unexplicable.. i quite clearly wasnt ready for u member TheOilDoc thow.. he he i aint no environmental crusader.. and to be quite honest i really dont give a fig about how often americans change their oil.. it was just something i thought worth a mention.. shame i did.. he he and my main concern as regards our growing HGV population is getting past the buggers on the A1.. trog100 ps.. this link here praps backs up my american 3000 mile figure.. tis a cadilac.. and even thow the makers say up to 12000 on this engine its quite clear the guy who wrote the article on the basis that oil is cheaper than a new cadilac engine is suggesting the wise reader do it every 3000.. praps he is into the same myth as everyone else is.. http://www.babcox.com/editorial/us/us100232.htm

lakelivin · Mar 14, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

Maybe alot of the disagreement in this thread stems from a lack of precision in communication. I agree with trog in that there seem to be a fair amount of 'sources' in the US recommending religous 3k oil changes (the '3k rule'). Commercials (oil companies & quick change oil shops), friends, etc. I hear it pretty regularly. What I don't know is if there's more of it here than in Europe, or how many Americans pay attention to the '3k rule' as compared to manufacturor recommendations for their vehicle. But by not clarifying that these 'recomendations' aren't from the auto makers, trog has opened up opportunity for confusion. Plus it's a hard point to defend in general since it's a perception thing. But in his defense, it wouldn't surprise me if there was more of a drive in the US by certain industries (oil companies, auto parts stores, & quick change shops) to promote the '3k rule'. As far as 'differences in quality' betwen the US & European oil, that seems to have been fully explained and needs no more discussion.

TheOilDoc · Mar 14, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

By trog100: but really member TheOilDoc why are u attempting to turn this into some UK verses american thing..

On the contrary, your original post compared the way Americans do things to the way Europeans do things. You have used American vs. UK analogies throughout your discussion.

By trog100: why do u feel the need to defend youself and your country..

Because your perception and implications are skewed, if not false. And because I prefer the American way over the UK way.

By trog100: why did i mention the enviroment in my first post...if i had simply said...americans change their oil more often than europens do.. i know the answer i would have got...something along the lines of.. "well u cant change it too often now can u"..

Many members have provided you with reasons why Americans change their oil more often than Europeans. You refuse to accept those reasons and argue against them. You have not discussed cost being a factor at all. And not one member has mentioned, "you can't change it too often"... However, that view seems to be your perception of Americans.

By trog100: i aint no environmental crusader.. and to be quite honest i really dont give a fig about how often americans change their oil.. it was just something i thought worth a mention.. shame i did

Yes, your comment about Americans unnecessarily "dumping" millions of tons of oil into the environment, and your perception of oil recycling in America was a bit off.

By trog100: ps.. this link here praps backs up my american 3000 mile figure.. tis a cadilac.. and even thow the makers say up to 12000 on this engine its quite clear the guy who wrote the article on the basis that oil is cheaper than a new cadilac engine is suggesting the wise reader do it every 3000.. praps he is into the same myth as everyone else is..

No. That article, which is one man's opinion, clearly states that 3,000 mile oil changes are a "conservative approach" and more "realistic" for operating in "less than ideal conditions". The article clearly states that GM recommends changing the oil with an upper limit of 12,000 miles or at least once a year. I'm sure someone in Europe has suggested 3,000 mile change intervals at one time or another as well.

TheOilDoc · Mar 14, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

Member LakeLivin you make some good points. Very few of the sources that are still recommending 3,000 mile oil changes are engine manufacturers. This is free America. There will always be those that market the 3,000 mile interval and those that use it. And lets not forget there are millions of older vehicles that still utilize that interval. But to portray Americans as wasteful sheep flocked to the 3,000 mile interval is incorrect. Americans, as a whole, have shifted away from the 3,000 mile change interval. High mileage synthetics and extended drain intervals are growing more popular. Manufacturers are setting higher intervals. Less maintenance is a selling point. Oil makers are producing higher mileage oils. Environmental conservation is of utmost importance. Both oil companies and auto makers have worked with the API to provide American consumers better quality oils and vehicles that use extended drain intervals.

surplusman · Mar 14, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

Thanks OilDoc, I did learn something from you, very interesting post. But here is the cold truth about oil changes. I know that I am not alone on this but, I grew up with info telling me every 3000k, give or take. Thats what I did, and thats what I will continue to do, simply because that how I have trained myself. If I now decide to start moving the intervals to 6 or 10k, then I will start forgetting to do it at all!! Thats ok though, I run all my vehicles hard and I know it, so I will just keep changing the oil. I guess having a family member manage a NAPA store helps also, I pay 10% over cost on anything, (including my oil and filters LOL). Thats nice since NAPA is really starting to carry a lot of marine parts.

lakelivin · Mar 15, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

Oil Doc, Don't disagree with anything you've said (and I'm sure you have much better info as to general trends by the US public). I do suspect this will be one of those things where it will take a long time for a certain proportion of the US public to overcome their 'common knowledge' impression (even if false) of best practice w.r.t. oil change intervals (e..g., surplusman's post above). Especially if the Parts Stores and Quick Change Shops continue to push the '3k principle'. After all, the message from them is probably much more visible to the average driver (via a plethora of tv commercials) than the more accurate info from more technically based and unbiased sources like this one, or even from engine manufacturors. One of those things that maybe used to be valid but where knowledge of the priciple lags behind technology advances, and where fathers pass down outdated 'principles' to their offspring (which I hear alot from callers to the radio program 'Car Talk'). Kind of like the principle that you should warm your car up before driving it in cold weather, or that you should downshift instead of braking when stopping a manual transmission auto. Just my personal observation, and hopefully the numbers will continue to shift, but seems like there's a fair number of people who get locked in on a thing and are almost irrational w.r.t. to new information and change. Not trying to be argumentative ('cause I don't disagree with you), just sharing my personal observations on a micro level. I guess my point is that additional education is needed and probably will be needed for awhile for a certain segment of our population, especially since we still have industries with significant resources that not only discourage accurate info, but whose interest is to encourage the perpetuation of outdated info. p.s. just out of curiosity, historically were there many manufacturors that recommended 3k change intervals as compared to 5k? I only started paying attention in the early '90s, at which point in time seems like 5k or 7.5k were pretty much the standard for the most commonly owned autos (again, just my impression, so correct me if I'm wrong on that). Best regards, and thanks for your overall input on oil issues.

kenimpzoom · Mar 15, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

Because most supid Americans believe anything they see on TV. If J_____ Lube say to change at 3000 miles, you better do it. Is there any TV commercial saying, this oil can go to 10,000 miles.... YES, I just saw one last week. The first one I have ever seen. So maybe there is hope. FYI, I change at 6000-7000 miles, even if the change oil light isnt on. Ken

lakelivin · Mar 15, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

Originally posted by KenImpZoom: Because most supid Americans believe anything they see on TV. If J_____ Lube say to change at 3000 miles, you better do it...... Ken

Or if their neighbor, Dad, or cousin, who they recognize as knowing more about engines than they do, recommends it. Doesn't matter that said neighbor, Dad, or cousin may not really know much at all, just that they know more than the stupid American who asked them the advice in the first place...

cmyers_uk · Mar 15, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

OilDoc

Because your perception and implications are skewed, if not false. And because I prefer the American way over the UK way

In my view there is no American way v UK way there is the one way to do it and thats the recommendation of the manufacturer. If the person who designed your car says 3k then so be it. My manufacturer say 10k thats when I change it, if he said 2k thats when Id change it. I drive a car built in the UK, designed by Germans from a Company thats registered on the American stock market whose share holders come from around the globe. Have fun and enjoy the debate

trog100 · Mar 15, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

here is an interesting link to people concerned in trying to find out how long the stuff should last.. their conclusions near the end is the interesting bit.. especially about the GM dashboard light.. i aint a mathematician so most of it was beyond me.. http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/interval.html trog100

cuzner · Mar 16, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

Hey Trog...glad too see you decided to stick around! As far the enviromental part of this goes, ALL oil is recycled in North America, don't know what they do with it( breast implants,cool whip

) but I'm pretty sure they are not using it for dust control on gravel roads anymore. My oil gets changed 4 times a year with synthetic .I average 50,000 km per year. Jim

cmyers_uk · Apr 7, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

Trog, Just checking my service schedule on my new Discovery 3 and its 15000 miles, unless you are outside western europe when its 7500 miles. Strange but true

hoot · Apr 7, 2005

Re: A strange "OIL" thing...

many, many years ago consumer reports did a test using new york city taxis running various oils, synthetics included. they ran the oils out to extended times and pulled the engines and inspected them. they found them within specs and tolerances with little wear. i think they doubled the milage to 6000 miles. their conclusion was that today's oils will go farther than the mfg's recommended change interval. i think people are so afraid of "voiding the warranty" that they are changing the oil too often. i don't know of any shops that can do oil analysis and tell how many miles have been put on an oil. now where is that copy of CR??

A strange "OIL" thing...

Petty Officer 1st Class

Senior Chief Petty Officer

Petty Officer 1st Class

Senior Chief Petty Officer

Lieutenant Junior Grade

Petty Officer 1st Class

Petty Officer 1st Class

Seaman Apprentice

Lieutenant Junior Grade

Rear Admiral

Lieutenant Junior Grade

Senior Chief Petty Officer

Senior Chief Petty Officer

Senior Chief Petty Officer

Senior Chief Petty Officer

Chief Petty Officer