Air Crash

BoatBuoy

Rear Admiral
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May 29, 2004
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Re: Air Crash

Pilot skill truly was amazing. If even a wingtip had touched the water, it might have been a very different outcome.
 

jay_merrill

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Dec 5, 2007
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Re: Air Crash


That is a very cool link, indeed. The most significant bit of info that it provides, is that the aircraft was able to reach an altitude of 4,000 feet in the vicinity of Harlem, before beginning the descent. From the news reports, I was under the impression that they hit the birds much sooner after takeoff. I guess you learn something new every day, though, because I've never thought of Canada Geese flying at 4,000 feet. I just "googled" them, and found out that they have been known to fly as high as 9,000 feet!

I just duplicated the flight path on Google Earth and compared it to a flight path that would have put the aircraft on a left base leg approach to Runway 24 at Teterboro. In the latter scenario, the distance is about a mile less than the point at which radar contact was lost over the Hudson at 300 feet.

This suggests that the pilot might have actually been able to pull off a deadstick landing at TEB. I still don't think the he made a bad decision though - as they say, hindsight is 20-20. Also, considering that the aircraft had a tail wind through the landing approach, which resulted in a higher ground speed that would not have occurred in a crosswind approach to TEB, its possible that the aircraft would not made the runway there. Making a downwind landing on a 6,000 foot runway in a deadstick A320, might have been a little interesting too!

I think this one is going to be talked about for a long time! I'm still amazed!
 

mthieme

Captain
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Oct 6, 2007
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Re: Air Crash

Yes, very amazing. I was mesmorized with this on the news last night and this morning. The pilot deserves whatever the civilian equivalent off the CMH.
There was some luck involved too...
The plane was not up to speed yet and it was still close to civilization so the ferries and other private first responders were there in minutes.
 

puddle jumper

Captain
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Jul 5, 2006
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Re: Air Crash

Yes that was amazing. I don't know if this has already been said but not what went wrong but what went right mad the day. My hat off to every one that was part of that. The pilot will defiantly get a metal. This is a JOB WELL DONE.
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
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Mar 22, 2005
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Re: Air Crash

Love that footage mick!! Take a look at around 3:03 ish. A guy looks like he chases down something at the end of the starboard wing. Cellphone? Looks like he then slips and falls and someone else has to go grab him and pull him out of the drink :rolleyes: Who knows? Just seems odd.

I landed yesterday at Newark which is almost on the Hudson, but a little further south. We landed north to south, so we paralleled the descent some. Amazing to see the ditch point from an airplane.

I would never second guess this guy, but I am curious about something. In the link from Angus it looks like he could've returned to LaGuardia and landed with the water underneath him for the last few miles too. I am guessing the answer is buildings, but it looks like he had plenty of altitude to make it there.
 

baconbiscut

Petty Officer 1st Class
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Jul 11, 2006
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356
Re: Air Crash

Nit picking: A crash is an out-of-control collision, usually with the ground.

This was a deliberate, controlled, landing on water. That is a "ditch".

Brilliantly performed. I know of no previous successful ditching of a passenger jet, ever.

Another nit: Not "Canadian" geese. Canada geese. Any goose from Canada is a Canadian goose, but the Canada goose is a particular species that is quite common in the USA.

I agree It's very hard to ditch an airliner. Usually as soon as the those those engines hit the water they dig in and and usually rip the fuselage a part. That pilot made one hell of a landing.
 

OldePharte

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 17, 2008
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Re: Air Crash

I never realized the current on the Hudson. I agree that those ferry boat captains did a superb job in maintaining their position during the rescue efforts and deserve a lot of praise as well.
 

jay_merrill

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Dec 5, 2007
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Re: Air Crash

QC, just a couple of points that might answer your questions ....

I saw a plot of the glide path of the aircraft a couple of days ago, which indicated that the apex of the flight was at 4,000 feet. I have since read that the data recorder indicates that it was only 3,200 feet. From that altitude, there is no way that he could have come back around to land on Runway 4 at Laguardia (LGA). He might have been able to make Runway 13 (heading of roughly 130), but that would have involved a 270 degree turn, which would have resulted in more altitude loss, and flight over a good portion of Manhattan. It also would have required a crosswind landing and would have required landing gear extension, which causes a lot of drag.

Teterboro (TEB) would have been his next, best bet. Given the distance that he flew (I plotted it with the distance function in Google Earth), its not impossible that he might have made it there. The problem in that case is similar to a LGA landing, however, in that the surrounding area is heavily populated. When you landed on Runway 22 at Newark (EWR), you may have noticed both the density of the area, and TEB under you during final approach.

The biggest problem that I see with TEB is that the only runway that he could have used, due to runway configuration and manuerving considerations, would have been runway 24. That would have required an approach from the east on what is referred to as a base leg, which is perpendicular to the landing runway. Because of this, he would been required to make a 90 degree left turn (or nearly so) to line up on final approach, at low altitude. Given that an unpowered aircraft will lose much more altitude in a bank than it does in level flight, this would have been precarious, at best.

There is also an issue with runway length. Runway 24 at TEB is only 6,013 feet long. While I have seen DC9-30s (about the same size as an A320) use it, that's not much runway when you have no thrust reversers to stop the aircraft. Landing on this runway also would have been with a tailwind, which increases ground speed, thus making it even harder to stop before the end of the runway.

I think what went on in this pilot's head, is that he had to quickly assess his options, and just didn't think he could make either airport. Also, as an airline pilot, he would have known that TEB was there, but probably had never flown out of it, because TEB is primarily a General Aviation airport, which caters to anything from light, single engine aircraft to large business jets. As such, I would guess that the US Airways pilot also worried about being able to use visual cues on the ground, to fly to absolute shortest path to a runway there. The problem that he would have had is that, as he got very low in the last stages of the approach, he would not have had very good forward perspective. All things considered, he had to make a decision at a high enough altitude to be able to make his intended point of landing. In an emergency landing, once you get to that point, your thought process becomes focused on putting the airplane where you need to, in order to survive - everything else is unimportant at that point.

I hope I've been able to offer some insight. I don't pretend to be an expert at flying A320s, but I do have a Commercial Pilot certificate, and worked/flew in the area for many years.

As for large birds, yup, they're very scarey. I once watched an aircraft called an Aerostar (light twin engine) land at TEB, with a broken windshield and pieces of a Canada Goose hanging out of it. The pilot was severly injured and was blinded by both the bird and pieces of windshield. Fortunately, he had been teaching his son how to fly, and the kid was with him. The son landed the aircraft from the right seat, because his dad couldn't.
 

QC

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Re: Air Crash

With any doubt, he made the right decision as there is lots of room for error with what is effectively a very wide and very long runway (the Hudson). As I (and you) said, not second guessing (20-20), just an interesting discussion.

I don't recall seeing Teterboro as I almost always select an A side (port) window. And we come right down the Hudson from pretty far north, so I just don't ever see that side . . .
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Air Crash

TEB is just north of EWR by a few miles, and is right under the final approach course to Runway 22 at EWR. The FAA may have changed the approach routes since I was flying in that area. I've been in New Orleans for nearly 20 years, so my knowledge of the area is dated.

All the approaches to Runway 22 at EWR used to come from the west, and make a right turn to final over TEB. Aircraft noise has always been a big problem in that area though, so I wouldn't be surprised if the approach routes were changed to lessen the impact of the EWR traffic.

I agree that this is a very interesting story. I've been following it closely, partly because its quite a miracle in general, but also because I spent 20 years in aviation.

Having watched the video that was posted in this thread, I also have to say that the ferry boat crews should be described as heros too. Holding those boats in just the right position to take on passengers, without running anyone over, or riding up onto the wings, must have been challenging. To me, they are as much the reason for the wonderful outcome of this accident, as was the aircrew, and I hope that they get the recognition that they deserve.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Air Crash

New info - apparently the same aircraft was used on the same flight two days before the incident. During the departure, compressor stalls were experienced in the right engine and the pilot announced that an emergency landing would be made. After some time, no further problems ocurred, and the plane continued to Charlotte.

It will be interesting to see what comes of this revelation.
 

j_martin

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Sep 22, 2006
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Re: Air Crash

Just in, it wasn't ordinary Canada Geese that downed that airliner.
 

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projecthog

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Apr 20, 2008
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Re: Air Crash

Simply Amazing!!!!

The response time is unbelievably fast!

No doubt that it saved some complications for sure.
I am in awe of the calm of the passengers, the whole scene is in fact just an awsomely unreal thing to behold.
A lot of truly decent minds at work there!
This is humanity in its best moments!!
 
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