Airline Crash...

FLWakeRider

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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I don't think any of you know yet, but I work for a company who manufactures and installs In-Flight Entertainment systems into aircraft (JetBlue is our biggest customer) called LiveTV. We are one of the biggest competitors of the market, but that is another story...
This post was to talk about some of the perks of the job...
You all should remember the US AIRWAYS crash landing in New York about two months ago... Well, here are some images that we received of the retrieval of the plane.
The fact that the thing was completely in tact was a 1/1,000,000 chance.
 

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tashasdaddy

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Re: Airline Crash...

almost intact, 1 engine in the river.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Airline Crash...

Interesting pics and an amazing story.

To me, the incredible part is the clarity with which the pilot, "Scully," saw the situation. I lived and worked in the area for many years and know it well. I was also in aviation at the time, so I'm familiar with the issues that Scully faced.

He might have made Runway 24 at Teterboro, if he had made the decision to try it immediately after the birdstrike, but I wouldn't want to say that it was a sure bet. Given that, as an airline pilot who is not from the area, and TEB is primarily a general aviation airport, he had most likely never been there. That being the case, the runway 24 option might not have occurred to him. Once he made the initial 180 degree turn, the only possible shot he had at making a runway, would have been runway 13 at Laguardia. That would have required flight across the top of Manhattan, and would not have been a sure bet either.

Landing in the Hudson was the best shot that he had and he correctly recognized that. Training a pilot to fly an aircraft well and follow emergency procedures from memory and/or a checklist, isn't all that difficult. What isn't so easy, is to find one who can size up a situation instantly, and make exactly the right decision as to which option will most likely be the one that yields success.
 

FLWakeRider

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Re: Airline Crash...

Yeah, I guess almost intact would have been better wording...
Close enough to not have to scrap was the major thing.
 

joed

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Re: Airline Crash...

Do you think that plane will ever fly again? I'm thinking no. There is probably a lot of not visible structural damage.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Airline Crash...

I wouldn't think it would ever be returned to service. Given the potential for hidden damage in the airframe, due to the water landing, you would have to pretty much take the whole thing apart to do test for strucutral cracking. On that basis alone, I think it would be considered to be a total loss from an insurance perspective.
 

rogerwa

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Re: Airline Crash...

Be careful next time you fly AirPakistan. You might want to check the VIN before boarding.

I have a hard enough time getting my 16' Alumacraaft off the bottom of the river, much less and entire aircraft. Must be a heck of a crane..
 

FLWakeRider

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Re: Airline Crash...

Rogerwa, I actually might agree with you...

I have an aquaitance of mine who traveled to Djibouti (Pronounced - Jabooty), Africa and he said the planes there were practically falling apart. He was actually apart of the US Military going over there on friendly relations as an engineer. He was telling me that they were just buying up decomissioned planes from US commercial fleets. Don't know how accurate the story is but he always seemed like a stand-up good guy.
 

QC

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Re: Airline Crash...

I have a hard enough time getting my 16' Alumacraaft off the bottom of the river
This cracked me up, sounds like you do it often . . . maybe you do :eek: :D

There are a lot of decommissioned US planes that are good though too . . . Often stored in the Desert, there's two big ones in the High Desert north of here and one in AZ I believe. Rows and rows of planes in different levels of condition.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Airline Crash...

That could be true but I would assume most of them were flown out of the US to the foreign destinations. That being the case, if I remember correctly, they would have to be issued an airworthyness certificate by the FAA. If there is some reason why the aircraft did not meet the original type certificate at the time, it would be a special airworthyness certificate as an experimental aircraft.

My point is basically that the US Air plane would have to be certified as airworthy to fly it anywhere, and that would cost some major money. I suppose it could be shipped in pieces, but I have to wonder if anyone would do that. You never know though - people do alot of weird stuff!
 

FLWakeRider

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Re: Airline Crash...

Once the aircraft is sold, it no longer needs to fall under FAA. Correct? We just had some planes sold in our hangar, and we retrofitted them to work with Brazilian satelites instead of working for the US DirectTV ones. I know the Brazilian crew came in to recertify the plane, but then again is Brazil under FAA? That one I don't know.

We actually deal a lot with EASA, CASA, and FAA documents here. One of my responsibilties includes inspecting all of the task cards, non-routines, and tear downs from our repair station.
 

rogerwa

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Re: Airline Crash...

This cracked me up, sounds like you do it often . . . maybe you do :eek: :D

There are a lot of decommissioned US planes that are good though too . . . Often stored in the Desert, there's two big ones in the High Desert north of here and one in AZ I believe. Rows and rows of planes in different levels of condition.

It sank two years in a row.. I don't plan to make a it a third. My trusty 1976 9.8 Merc started right up both times, but I know I am just playing with fire doing it again..

I had a 6x6 ATV with a winch on the front trying to haul it out. I had big blocks of wood in front of the tires and it still wouldn't come out.
 

QC

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Re: Airline Crash...

I didn't think I'd hit so close to home . . . :eek: :D I have a hard time just getting a wet towel out of the drink :rolleyes: LOL
 

lowkee

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Re: Airline Crash...

Look at the nose of that thing.. I think he rear ended someone and just flew off! Pilots these days.. ;)

Just watch, in about a month, that thing will be on Criagslist as 'No title, fresh water only, ran great when put away'
 

Expidia

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Re: Airline Crash...

The most amazing thing I saw was Sully (the pilot) on 60 minutes.

What are the chances that you would have a guy like him in the cockpit with like 24 years of experience?

Just listening to this guy I had tears in my eyes. He has nerves of steel. I mean of course he is doing things by reflex to an extent, but to make all those decisions in a time frame of 2-3 minutes knowing you have 150 lives at stake in the back of your mind (plus your own) and to have not crashed into the bridge . . . amazing.

They showed him after in a big room meeting all the familes and people coming up to him thanking him for saving my husband. Kids thanking him for saving my Daddy!

Totally heart breaking to watch.

Then there are some of those other pilots who get caught trying to board "drunk" or the two pilots that crashed a few weeks ago near Buffalo, NY losing everyone due to icing. It was said that the pilot still had the plane on auto just short of the airport which is a violation. Supposedly, if it was off auto he would have felt the wings heavy with ice. Who knows until they find out what the actual cause was. But give me Sully if I had to choose my pilot.
 

jay_merrill

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Re: Airline Crash...

The issue of the airworthyness certificate has to do with being allowed to fly it in the US, on the way to somewhere else. You may have a point about who's airworthyness certificate is applicable, once a sale has been made, but you would probably find that the US would require airworthyness standards at least as stringent as ours, for the plane to be flown out of an airport in the States. I'm not completely conversant on this issue, but can tell you that foreign air carriers and operators usually have to meet minimum standards to operate an aircraft here.

On the autopilot issue in the Dash 8/Q400, there were some reports that said use of the autopilot on approach in icing conditions, was prohibited by company procedure. I later read that this is only true in cases of severe icing, rather than moderate icing. There may also be guidelines and requirements on this in the aircraft manufacturer's operating manual.

Regardless, the reason why the autopilot issue is key, is that an aircraft that is picking up ice will both become heavier and suffer from airflow disruptions. Generally what happens is that the wing requires more speed and/or angle of attack, to maintiain a certain amount of lift. If the autopilot is flying the airplane and power is set for a certain airspeed (either manually or by the autopilot), the pilots may not notice a gradual increase in pitch angle as the airplane attempts to hold altitude. They are supposed to be monitoring what is going on, but if they don't, they might miss the key indicators of a problem.

On the other hand, if they were hand flying the airplane, they would have noticed the need to pull back on the yoke to maintain altitude and a need to increase power to maintain airspeed. You can also sometimes feel that the aircraft is about to stall. It is my personal belief that this was a classic "stall/spin accident," brought on by icing. One clue in regard to this is that the aircraft was facing in the direction opposite of the intended flight, when found on the ground.

Another issue that I noticed that doesn't seem to have been brought up by anyone, is that the wing deicing system was apparently activated soon after departure at Newark. In an aircraft with pnuematic deicing boots, that is usually not done. You usually wait until you have a little bit of ice built up, and then you activate the system to "break" it off. If the boots are activated and constantly expanding and contracting as the ice builds up, you can actually end up with a layer of ice that has a hollowed out shell, into which the boots just move in and out. The end result is that you don't shed the ice.

Clear icing v. rime icing could also be an issue. Rime ice is sort of a granular substance that looks like frozen snow - it has a "whitish" appearance. Pnuematic deicing boots do a pretty good job of removing it, because it tends to collect mostly on the leading edge of the wings. Rime ice is also lighter than clear ice.

The problem with clear ice is both that it is heavy and it tends to run back over the wings, behind the deicing boots. Its scary stuff and there were some reports of clear ice in the area.

This accident could prove to be one in which pin pointing an exact cause is difficult. My guess is that the aircraft stalled in an instant and very little was said in the cockpit - they would have been startled and intensely involved in trying regain control. There was most likely no evidence of the icing remaining either, due to the post crash fire. What might show up on the data recorder, however, are flight control inputs made by the autopilot, that might show a trend towards increasing angle of attack in level flight.

I've been out of the business for a long time, but I still hate reading about this stuff. I guess having made a living in the field for 20 years makes it kind of personal.
 

Expidia

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Re: Airline Crash...

Thx Jay . . . That was an interesting read on the possible icing as a cause for that crash. Amazing how many facets there are as to what the cause might have been. I think it takes about a year before they issue their findings.
 

david_r

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Re: Airline Crash...

Just watch, in about a month, that thing will be on Criagslist as 'No title, fresh water only, ran great when put away'

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i will keep my eye open...........anyone want to go halves?........all i want is that one engine...........gonna rig it to my 17' bassmaster :eek: :D ...........yall think i will need a pilots license?
 
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