Alcohol in gasoline...

[generator12]

I picked up an 86 Four Winns a couple of months ago and have been rehabbing the interior and upgrading the Merc. 170 (Pertronix, Smart-tabs, Delco alternator). And, of course, I've been reading this forum.

It's kind of like reading a book about illnesses - you begin to feel aches and pains you never noticed before...!

Now my latest "worry" is whether any of you have actually had the problems we're often told to expect with the 10% methanol mix fuels. The gaskets, seals, rubber goods are said to deteriorate due to the alcohol. Yet the prior owner of the boat had nothing else to run in it, so I assume he would have seen the problems if they actually occur.

What experiences have you all had? Is the concern real?

Thanks in advance...

 

[Bifflefan]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

You wont even know its in there.
Dont worry until there is a reason.
If its been running on it, it will keep running on it.

 

[wire2]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

10% is of virtually no consequence.

Now, if you were to fuel up at an E85 pump, (85% methanol, 15% gasoline), then expect issues to crop up.
Mind you, I see no reason anyone would use it. It's priced similar to premium here in Ontario, yet has much less power, 25% less mileage.

 

[waterinthefuel]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

If you're pouring your beer into your tank, you're either out of gas or a jerk for wasting a good beer.

Keep the alcohol out of your tank and keep it in your tummy, where it belongs!

 

[Borchik]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

First, its Ethanol, not methanol, big difference. There are some associated issues with it and for those areas that have been dealing with it for a while its become commonplace. main issue is shelf life of the fuel. even the companies selling it will tell you it has a life span of 2 weeks when untreated before the ethanol starts to separate from the gas, then starts to absorb water. basically the 2 best things you can do is to always add some sort of ethanol stabilizer at any fillup and only put in what you need plus a touch more to make sure you dont run out.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

That is utter nonsense. Up here in the tundra our boats sit from late October to early November until spring (late March - Early April) and they fire off just fine on six month old fuel. Yes we do treat our fuel but E10 does not deteriorate in two weeks - even untreated. We know this because we have been using the stuff since 1997. Good heavens, snowbirds leave their summer cars sit all winter while they are south of the Mason-Dixon line to return in the spring, jump in the car and go do their thing. They get their boats out and go fishing. If a car truck, boat, motorcylce sat for two weeks you would think the planet would be littered with vehicles that won't run. E10 easily lasts six months and you will not notice a difference. That said, there are some areas of the country (mainly coastal areas) or boaters with huge tanks that don't burn their fuel loads over long periods of time that can have some fuel related issues. There are also those with older boats whose fuel systems were not ethanol tolerant. Replace the hoses and rebuild carbs if necessary with modern components and go boating. If moisture is an issue for you then a water separating fuel filter is suggested. If you don't burn off a fuel load over a short period of time it behooves you to use any of the better fuel system treatments which would be to your advantage whether you use E10 or not. As for the engines themselves, they don't care if they are running on E10 or regular.

 

[nash1970]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

It cleans the sludge in your tank and then clogs the filters I had to have my carbs serviced and then switched to 10 micron filter .

 

[109jb]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

First, its Ethanol, not methanol, big difference. There are some associated issues with it and for those areas that have been dealing with it for a while its become commonplace. main issue is shelf life of the fuel. even the companies selling it will tell you it has a life span of 2 weeks when untreated before the ethanol starts to separate from the gas, then starts to absorb water. basically the 2 best things you can do is to always add some sort of ethanol stabilizer at any fillup and only put in what you need plus a touch more to make sure you dont run out.

This is a bunch of nonsense. This is the kind of stuff that makes people worry too much about something they don't need to worry about. Here in the midwest we have had E-10 for many many years. I have snowmobiles, boats, lawn mowers, snow blowers, weed eaters, ATV's, chain saws, gas blowers, gas pressure washer, and all of these listed items are seasonal or occasional use. I have NEVER had a problem with ethanol whether treated or not. Some of the listed items never get any kind of fuel treatment because I'm just too lazy. Hell, my weed eater is still running on the gas/oil mix I mixed up in the summer of 2008 (I don't have much to trim). The darn thing starts right up and runs just fine. Don't have any problems with anything else either.

The only thing I have done on the boat is to install a water separating fuel filter. Other than that, I just run it and have not had a problem ever.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

This is a bunch of nonsense. This is the kind of stuff that makes people worry too much about something they don't need to worry about. Here in the midwest we have had E-10 for many many years. I have snowmobiles, boats, lawn mowers, snow blowers, weed eaters, ATV's, chain saws, gas blowers, gas pressure washer, and all of these listed items are seasonal or occasional use. I have NEVER had a problem with ethanol whether treated or not. Some of the listed items never get any kind of fuel treatment because I'm just too lazy. Hell, my weed eater is still running on the gas/oil mix I mixed up in the summer of 2008 (I don't have much to trim). The darn thing starts right up and runs just fine. Don't have any problems with anything else either.

The only thing I have done on the boat is to install a water separating fuel filter. Other than that, I just run it and have not had a problem ever.

+1

Same list of stuff, same experience.....lazy too.

 

[roncoop75]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

I had the exact opposite experience.

Bought a boat about 2 months ago. Gas from last season (sat about 8 months) was bad. I'd say about 2 gallons of garbage in the bottom of the tank, but that could have been in there a long time so that's anecdotal.

BUT, here's the kicker. It wasn't starting well so I'm doing all manner of things to the fuel system, basically replacing tank, fuel hose, primer bulb, fuel lines on engine and a fuel pump kit. I get it running, (problem was needing a throttle assy. with a working warm up lever) run about a gallon through it just to test and it sits for two weeks. I mix up some new fuel, hook the tank up and squeeze the bulb. What color of fuel do I see first appear in my glass inline filter? Yellow. I think, "that's odd, the fuel is only two weeks old and it started out green". I take the filter off making sure not to spill it and it smells funny. So I pump the rest of that crap out of the lines, hook it back up and pump some nice fresh green goodness back into the filter.

The stuff that went from green to yellow in 2 weeks was not treated with anything. Motor ran on it fine (just what was left in the carb bowls) but you could tell it was starting to change to something undesirable.

Personally, I'm not really "scared" of it. It's just something to watch, another puzzle to solve. Kind of interesting really. I'm betting the stabil will keep me from seeing that again.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

You started with fresh, most likely clear (or close to it) gas, added oil which turned it green and then after two weeks it was yellow so its bad, even though it worked as it should.

Sounds like the dye in the oil faded.

 

[109jb]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

I had the exact opposite experience.

Bought a boat about 2 months ago. Gas from last season (sat about 8 months) was bad. I'd say about 2 gallons of garbage in the bottom of the tank, but that could have been in there a long time so that's anecdotal.

BUT, here's the kicker. It wasn't starting well so I'm doing all manner of things to the fuel system, basically replacing tank, fuel hose, primer bulb, fuel lines on engine and a fuel pump kit. I get it running, (problem was needing a throttle assy. with a working warm up lever) run about a gallon through it just to test and it sits for two weeks. I mix up some new fuel, hook the tank up and squeeze the bulb. What color of fuel do I see first appear in my glass inline filter? Yellow. I think, "that's odd, the fuel is only two weeks old and it started out green". I take the filter off making sure not to spill it and it smells funny. So I pump the rest of that crap out of the lines, hook it back up and pump some nice fresh green goodness back into the filter.

The stuff that went from green to yellow in 2 weeks was not treated with anything. Motor ran on it fine (just what was left in the carb bowls) but you could tell it was starting to change to something undesirable.

Personally, I'm not really "scared" of it. It's just something to watch, another puzzle to solve. Kind of interesting really. I'm betting the stabil will keep me from seeing that again.

Which is it? "mix up new fuel" or "the fuel is only two weeks old"

lets take each case:

mix up new fuel -- if you mixed up "new" fuel and found it separated then the can had water in it before the fuel or the supplier sold you part water and part fuel. In this case it is the only way it could happen.

the fuel is only 2 weeks old -- Could be the same as above, but my guess would be you had rainwater get in the tank somehow.

I don't buy it. If fuel could spontaneously separate in just 2 weeks then there would be a lot of cars having problems out there. How many times have you had someone you know tell you that they had to take their car in because of bad gas that they let sit for 2 weeks?

 

[roncoop75]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

Which is it? "mix up new fuel" or "the fuel is only two weeks old"

lets take each case:

mix up new fuel -- if you mixed up "new" fuel and found it separated then the can had water in it before the fuel or the supplier sold you part water and part fuel. In this case it is the only way it could happen.

the fuel is only 2 weeks old -- Could be the same as above, but my guess would be you had rainwater get in the tank somehow.

I don't buy it. If fuel could spontaneously separate in just 2 weeks then there would be a lot of cars having problems out there. How many times have you had someone you know tell you that they had to take their car in because of bad gas that they let sit for 2 weeks?

The can was brand new and looked good when I mixed it up. Two weeks later, what was left in the bulb and lines was yellow. There was no tank to get rain water in, tank was disconnected for the two weeks it sat. The fuel that went yellow was sitting inside the bulb and fuel lines that are sealed by a check valve in the connector.

There were two batches of newly mixed, fresh fuel. The one I did testing with (that discolored in the lines/bulb) and the second one I mentioned with the stabil in it. You could count the stuff from the previous owner which I can't give a history of so I don't really count that.

You could be right about getting new fuel that had water in it though. I'd expect it to look bad from the start, but it didn't.

Also, I mentioned nothing about separating or water. Only that it was discolored after two weeks and smelled off.

As far as the cars having problems, I already mentioned that the motor ran fine on what was left of the discolored, odd smelling fuel that was in the float bowls. I'd imagine that a car would run fine on it also.

One more thing. I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself so I'm not surprised your doubting this. Seeing the yellow fuel pop up in that filter made me stop everything I was doing and investigate, and that's saying something because I really wanted to take it out that day and start testing speed/rpm's to see if the PO had it propped correctly. So ya, I'm just as surprised as you are to see this.

Like I said, it doesn't worry me any, just another puzzle. Next gas will come from a different station per your input about getting bad gas to begin with. Thx.

Edit: I also see your confusion with what you marked red in my post. When I hooked up the tank with the new fuel in it and started to pump the bulb it pushed the stuff sitting in the lines/bulb into the clear filter where I could see it. THAT'S the stuff that discolored.

 

[roncoop75]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

You started with fresh, most likely clear (or close to it) gas, added oil which turned it green and then after two weeks it was yellow so its bad, even though it worked as it should.

Sounds like the dye in the oil faded.

Wow, didn't know that would happen in two weeks, or at all for that matter. Still doesn't explain the smell though. Thanks for the info about the dye, didn't know that could happen.

 

[RicMic]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

Most everything now is built to handle E10, the problem(and it is a problem) is that ethanol will separate from gasoline if left sitting. Actual government tests at service station found E(10) levels up 30% or E(30) which most vehicles are NOT meant to handle. In fact if you go out and buy a new outboard and it blows up and they determin that the cause was a high ethanol %, they will void your warranty, thats a fact. Read almost any new engine manual, they all say E10 is OK to use, but they recommend NOT using it if you have the option. If you have an older boat with a fiberglass fuel tank, you cannot use ethanol fuel in it, it will disolve the tank. Ethanol is a very effective solvent, so if add it to a tank that never had it before it will disolve any buildup from fuel in the system. It does absorb water, either thats already in the tank or from the air thats in the tank. Usually that isn't a problem, other than the fact that the ethanol and water combination is very corrosive. So if you read your engine manual it very likely tells you to not leave ethanol fuel sitting in the engine. More good news the ethanol people are pushing for the E15 to become the standard. This stuff is all fact, you can do a search and read the info for as long as you can stand it.

 

[generator12]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

Lots of good thoughts here.

When I wrote the original question it was to learn whether there was a general problem with system deterioration due to the alcohol content of the fuel.

I too have had that mix in all my stuff - lawn equipment, snow blowers, etc. It's all I can get in southern Wisconsin. I've never had a problem I could assign to it.

The responses suggest that - other than a fiberglass tank (and I WILL check the boat tomorrow) - this fuel should not be particularly damaging to the systems of my old 170 Merc.

Thanks for all the responses guys.

 

[metriccrescentwrench]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

Use a fuel treatment and water separating filter and you should be fine. I had issues when I first got my boat that all I could attribute it to was bad gas. After that I've used fuel treatment along with the filter and have had zero problems in 4 years using whatever brand of regular gas happens to be convenient. Stabil now markets a treatment for fuels with ethanol, wally world carries that.

 

[lncoop]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

We'll all believe what we want, but I've been told by more than one service tech that the E10 begins to break down after two weeks. A thimble will hold my knowledge of fuel systems, so I can't make an informed determination as to whether that's true. Therefore, I choose to invest a few bucks in fuel treatment just in case. We'll call it hedging. During the summer I burn through gas fast enough that I don't have to worry about it, but any time I think I'll have fuel in my tank for more than two weeks, in goes the snake oil. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Philster]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

If there are problems with Ethanol fuels (the 10% stuff), it is terribly hard to use all this anecdotal evidence to draw any conclusions.

I had a fuel problem in 1979 and one in 1986 (little bits of water that caused a lot of grief)!

There are bad batches off fuel out there, and if you want to find one, your best chance is at a marina, resort or any old(er) gas station. Even new stations can have bad gas. Heck, 98% of the customers pumping from the same tank might be ok, then someone comes along and gets some water that was already in the tank into their boat's tank. They were just unfortunate enough for the pump to get it out of the station's tank and into the boat.

Water has been around for how many years? It gets into fuel. All kinds of things happen to fuel in various places. But... ethanol isn't to blame for all of them!

Maybe some. MAYBE. And then only in some cases. Maybe.

 

[RicMic]

Re: Alcohol in gasoline...

No maybe's about it, do a little research on ethanol in gasoline and you will get an eye opener. There is water in almost all fuel tanks, it usually causes zero problems, in fact if you look into the bottom of most non-ethanol tanks, you will SEE the blob of water at the bottom. Unless that blob gets big enough that it gets sucked up the fuel pickup, it causes no problem and if it does get sucked up, it is very easy to remove, because gasoline and water will not mix. Ethanol WILL mix with both water and gasoline, if it dosn't sit in the fuel system for long, it most likely won't cause a problem, if it sits in a fuel system the ethanol is corrosive and the water it brings along makes it worse. MOST fuels systems built in the last few years are meant to handle 10% ethanol and not more, the problem is that if it sits for long, the ethanol will separate from the gasoline and the fuel pickup may be sucking a much higher than 10% ethanol mix. If the ethanol producers get their way, we will soon be stuck with 15% ethanol.