Alternative to A&B foam

[mckeemm]

Ok, tell me if I'm crazy.<br /><br />I'm pricing materials for a floor and stringer replacement on a $250 boat. I don't have much to money spend so I’m looking at alternatives to the two-part urethane foam, which is $119 for a gallon kit that produces 10 cubic feat of foam.<br /><br />I'm thinking that a cheep source of closed cell foam are my kids pool noodles. I can get them at the dollar store for a buck. Lay them in the floor between the stringers and hold them in place with a few gobs of construction adhesive. These things stay in the pool all year and don't seem to get water logged. I know it won't add any rigidity to the floor but I can compensate with stronger stringer material if need be.<br /><br />Any thoughts?

 

[Bondo]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

I'd go with No Foam,... At All,... Before I tried using Anything but the Right Foam........

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

Bondo from what i have read your knowledge of boats is very comprehensive and a few others here seem to dislike foam. May i respectfully ask why? Recently i have added 8lb foam to my boat and the ridigity is unbelieveable, i would think thats a build quality that one would strive to have.<br /><br />The only down fall i can see is trapping moisture or condensation which i believe to be inevitable anyway.<br /><br />I have also read of a subject called hydrolic vibration .........i guess wear and tear (flexing) and this (foaming) would seem to minimize that greatly.<br /><br />Or when you refer to the right foam is that in regards to close cell?

 

[epresutti]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

Mohwak750,<br /><br />In my boat the foam was only in a few places, my understanding is it was a requirement for manufacturers of pleasure boats that there be some minimum amount of floatation. There was some kind of regulation based on size and use (I do not know the specific regulation).<br /><br />In my humble opinion using the "noodles" would provide some type of emergency floatation in the event of some type of significant failure of the hull (or leaving the plug out). This may have a negligable impact on the intended use of the foam, the noodles may not help if the boat is sinking.<br /><br />I am with Bondo, leave the foam out, get a few more floatation cushions and make sure you have PFD's for everyone, a spare, one for the dog (or cat) and one to throw with a rope tied to it.<br /><br />Just my $0.02<br /><br />Peace.<br /><br />Ed.

 

[Chief101]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

On the other hand I really wouldn't go without foam. I've been swamped more than once where the floatation has saved my bacon. I have plenty of bilge pump and floatation. I run up and down technical whitewater rivers so that may make a diference whether you want your hull to float or not. Chief Chief

 

[studlymandingo]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

The noodles are interesting to say the least. You may want to do some experimentation to determine what their floatation value is (how many noodles does it take to float your boat). When I was a kid, my grandpa and I built a raft out of a wooden pallet and a bunch of 1 gallon plastic milk jugs. We both fished off of it for hours at a time. Positive bouyancy comes in many forms!!!

 

[alden135]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

Hodge-podging a boat is a bad idea. You can't just walk away when things go wrong.<br /><br />What's your life worth?

 

[JasonJ]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

$119 seems a bit much. Have you checked around? I do not recommend going the noodle route. The main problem is the air space around the noodles. Unless you eliminate every air void under the floor, the amount of noodles you would have may not displace enough water. Also, noodles sitting in a pool with a lot of air circulation is very different than sealed into a boat hull with zero air circulation. Any water that might penetrate a noodle that is floating in a pool would end up evaporating back out of it because it is sitting in the sun and being heated. Being sealed in a boat hull, the noodles would eventually degrade and start to absorb water.<br /><br />Unfortunately going cheap on foam isn't always a good idea. You may have a $250 boat, but the boat is irrelevant. The boat that is still floating and keeping you and your family alive is what is important, then that $119 doesn't sound as bad. Do it right, and you won't have to worry...Good luck.

 

[studlymandingo]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

If the boat starts to sink, you can chop open the floor and pass out noodles to everyone on board!!!

 

[mckeemm]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

I love this debate.<br /><br />The further I get into this the less likly I am to go cheep. I am on a thin budget so I do have to think smart, safe and cheep mostly in that order.<br /><br />Some folks have rebuilt their boats and eliminated the foam all together. I figured some type of floatation was better than none. This will be a small water fair weather boat for the most part so it won't get pushed to the limits.<br /><br />Does anyone know of a supplier for cheep boat repair materials in Ontario, Canada.<br /><br />I'm new to this so I don't have the contacts.<br /><br />Thanks, Mark

 

[E. E.]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

Not in Canada but uscomposites.com is the cheapest place I,ve seen.

 

[Purduebarry]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

Look at this link...They have a very informative FAQ section for foam, how it is rated and which LB to use. It provides floation, structural rigidity and I would suggest a better handling, smoother ride in the water. That foam absorbs a lot of impact and provides dampening. You can also buy it much cheaper here Foam supplier than other places. I'm pretty sure they will ship to Canada.<br /><br />After many threads on the subject I am now convinced that 2lb is the best for flotation and 4lb if you want to add structural support for decking etc. Tail Gunner used 8lb just in case he gets that supercharger he has always wanted. Just make sure everything is water tight and pour it in. One last thing. If you do not restrict the expansion and in warm conditions (70-80 degrees) you will get a much greater expansion and probably need less than you anticipated.<br /><br />Worst case senerio, if you run into a problem at least you'll have something to hang onto . Without foam you'll sink like a rock ! I wouldn't even consider not using it .

 

[Bondo]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

Bondo from what i have read your knowledge of boats is very comprehensive and a few others here seem to dislike foam. May i respectfully ask why?

Well,........<br />I don't Think,... I KNOW that there's No Such Thing as a Dry, WaterProof compartment in a Boat.....<br />I Also Know that All foam will Suck up Water,... Eventually.... I've pulled enough of it from enough Hulls.......<br /><br />For My Refitted Hulls,...... They'll be Foamless,+ Well Drained,..... With Oversized Bilge Pumps,.......<br /><br />If,.. by Chance something So Severe happens to the Hull that the Pumps Can't keep up,.....<br />I've got PFDs for everybody on board......<br />'Cause IF it's That Bad,......<br />An Extremely Foamed Hull will mearly be a Large PFD....Probably with Rotten Wood in it from the Lack of Drainage.........<br /><br />This is MY Opinion,+ I'm Not saying that Anybody, or Everybody will Agree,.......<br />But,.... It's Still the way I'm going to Go...........

 

[studlymandingo]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

But Bondo, if you had fun noodles in your empty compartments, you would at least have something to do until help arrived!!!

 

[Bondo]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

I Guess you haven't seen My Soda Pop Bottle Floation threads...........................

 

[Purduebarry]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

Mark's Joy recommends the following...<br /><br />

A good way to refoam if you want to is to buy 2" pink industrial foam, and epoxy sheets together to get your thickness. IE: 2x5=10" they come 8' long. Then just cut them to fit the shape you need to fill the space. They wont rot, or hold water.

I'm in the midst of a similar rebuild...earlier in this thread I strongly recommended foam. I just spent another two hours digging out this ruthless crap from the opposite side of the boat. I started on the starboard with a soft spot. Now I'm finding more rot and water saturated foam on the port side. I was convinced that the water was from soaking wet swimmers saturating the starboard side of the boat. Now I am second guessing my position on this. I'm getting water from somewhere and I can't see where. There are no weep holes between the sides and the middle, so water can't get in or out and once it does get in it will never get out. The water could be coming in through cracks in the decking but I doubt it, seems like a lot of water. <br /><br />The boat is dry stacked in an enclosed building so I know it's not rain. So it must be weeping in from the transom ? <br /><br />To the point of others perhaps you'll use Mark's inovation, better than swim tubes (there are several threads on his idea). Or keep em unfilled and create some access panels, at least if you are taking water then you'll be able to see it and deal with it. I might rethink this whole damn thing...AGAIN! <br /><br />Wood floats, fiberglass will if unless there is a breach, I guess the coast guard felt it best that a fiberglass boat should float no matter what. I wish there was a better way to deal with this. I my situation the boat seems to be rotting from the inside out, the soaked foam is keeping water and vapor under the wood and sooner or later it reaks havoc.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

You are talking like a detective, id suggest you research the type of foam used in the era of your boat.<br /><br />I would think the stringers were sealed in fiberglass.<br /><br /> Were all the failure's due to the material's or just poor workmanship.............. <br /><br />We know the result's, know the cause...

 

[studlymandingo]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

Just read a thread about Bondo's soda pop bottle floatation; wow people get pretty passionate about this!!! <br /><br />Actually I think it would be a good idea Bondo, I mentioned the milk jug raft that I fished off of with my grandpa when I was a kid! Did you ever use this method in a boat?

 

[rebars1]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

Mohawk750, Try this place for foam:<br /><br />www.uscomposites.com<br /><br />Much better prices

 

[mckeemm]

Re: Alternative to A&B foam

Thanks for the link guy's.<br /><br />Everybody likes US composites. I talked to a local supplier and he told me about a guy who floats his dock on blue barrels filled with soda bottles.<br /><br />I believe that it's possible to get floatation from alternative's but only the poured foam will give the structural rigidity and floor support that I would like. I think I will use it but seal all the wood under the floor with resin and provide allot more drainage options to get the water to the bilge.<br /><br />There are companies that do spray foam insulation in commercial buildings. I’m wondering what kind of foam they use and if any one has taken their boat to one of these guys and had them spray the floor full before closing.