And I thought warrantless wiretaps were bad!!!!!!

waterinthefuel

Commander
Joined
Nov 15, 2003
Messages
2,728
Re: And I thought warrantless wiretaps were bad!!!!!!

No cop has a right to touch my vehicle in any way, shape or form and them doing so is a violation of my rights. They *should* have no right to attach anything to it for any reason. That's absurd.

If this device is attached to my vehicle while it is on my property then that is trespassing.

One way or the other, laws are being violated.
 

aborgman

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
210
Re: And I thought warrantless wiretaps were bad!!!!!!

Yes, no, qualified yes. A qualified yes because it is no different than today.

In the case of a cop not liking someone - I would think that having a truthful record of where you have been, automatically recorded, would be more to your liking than having a record that depended on the recording capability of the cop that dosn't like you.

It is far easier to modify a couple of pencil entries in a notebook than to modify a set of entries (one reading every 5 minutes, 1 minute, etc) in a computer system.

You're assuming the information has any bearing on a legal case. I'm assuming a cop with a vendetta that just wants to make your life difficult. Easier access to information they have no justifiable need for makes them screwing with you easier, and less likely to be noticed by superiors (due to less resources necessary).


Uh, so now they can know where the star's nteenth cars are.

...and everyone elses.

See - we're hearing about unnecessary background checks on stars, because they're famous and there were a lot of them. How many unnecessary background checks were done on the non-well-known? How many of those get caught by the audits? Not many - and a huge number of unjustified and unnecessary get done every day.



More, each of the people that did this sort of thing had a reason. (Curiosity, it seems to be). They didn't randomly select a name out of a hat. I doubt some law enforcement officer in, say, New Mexico would select your GPS information - or even know that it exists (if it did).

No, but Billy Bob LocalCop is quite likely to intentionally select the names of some people he doesn't get along with, and use that information for nefarious purposes... you know - political enemies, the kid down the street sleeping with his daughter, the guy that beat him up in high school, etc.

I'm more worried about the non-law enforcement people looking at my personal information. But that's a different discussion.

They're one in the same. A huge amount of the data entry for current police databases is done by private contractors - and the very existence of the data exponentially increases the odds that someone who shouldn't be looking (law enforcement or otherwise) will be looking.

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aborgman
 

v1_0

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Messages
575
Re: And I thought warrantless wiretaps were bad!!!!!!

You're assuming the information has any bearing on a legal case. I'm assuming a cop with a vendetta that just wants to make your life difficult. Easier access to information they have no justifiable need for makes them screwing with you easier, and less likely to be noticed by superiors (due to less resources necessary).

I'd ammend this to say: less likely to *immediately* be noticed by superiors. I'm assuming that, like the other information (background checks, etc) the access to the information is logged. I think this is a fair assumption.


See - we're hearing about unnecessary background checks on stars, because they're famous and there were a lot of them. How many unnecessary background checks were done on the non-well-known? How many of those get caught by the audits? Not many - and a huge number of unjustified and unnecessary get done every day.

What I don't see here is any actual effect. So, if some law enforcement agent knows where my car is - so what? Like I've stated, this information is obtainable today. My neighbors can know when I come and go. I could watch my neighbors driveways to see when they come and go. I see no new capabilities in this.

I suppose I'm not that imaginative, but I can't see a scenario where this can be used against me. Of course, if I were going somewhere illegal - or had something to hide - that would be a different story.


No, but Billy Bob LocalCop is quite likely to intentionally select the names of some people he doesn't get along with, and use that information for nefarious purposes... you know - political enemies, the kid down the street sleeping with his daughter, the guy that beat him up in high school, etc.

All information he could get by following these people. Or hiring/convincing someone to do it for him. And, there could be no record of it, especially if he did it in his off time. With a GPS type system - you would see records of him periodically accessing the system for those people's records.

Point is, that if Billy Bob LocalCop is out to get someone, and willing to go beyond what's legal, then there's a good chance he will. At least the GPS record removes the possibility of fudged observations, and could actually help someone in the case of police harassment. (It would help establish a pattern of unecessary scrutany).


A huge amount of the data entry for current police databases is done by private contractors - and the very existence of the data exponentially increases the odds that someone who shouldn't be looking (law enforcement or otherwise) will be looking.

The sort of data entry that you are talking about is taking information off of some paper/external format and copying it into the system. You know - when you go to the DMV and fill out a form, or when a cop writes up a ticket on their ticket pad, etc.

I would hope that the GPS information didn't work that way - even if you set the collection rate at 1 data point every 5 minutes, you are talking 288 data points per 24 hour period. Per car. This could be compressed a bit by adding a counter and a location (ie: 5 readings at location xxyyzz). Also note that those data points would need to include count, time, and GPS location - so, like 10 (gps) + 18 (time/date) + 4 (?) count = 32 characters to enter per GPS reading. Given a manual data entry error rate of 1 char in every 300 we would have about 30 errors per day per car, upper end. As an average.

On the whole, I don't see any increase in capability given by a GPS tracking system. Police can certainly track a car now - either by following it with another car, air, or perhaps by monitoring a cell phone. The capabilities exist to do this sort of thing by satelite, although at a limited availability.
The only difference would be they can track more cars in the same period of time - something they could do by hiring more people if they had the need. Bottom line, it is just a more cost-effective method of doing something that can already be done.
 

aborgman

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
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Messages
210
Re: And I thought warrantless wiretaps were bad!!!!!!

The only difference would be they can track more cars in the same period of time - something they could do by hiring more people if they had the need. Bottom line, it is just a more cost-effective method of doing something that can already be done.

More cost effective... and more invasive - to the point of crossing the line between "reasonable" and "unreasonable" search.

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aborgman
 

v1_0

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Messages
575
Re: And I thought warrantless wiretaps were bad!!!!!!

More cost effective... and more invasive - to the point of crossing the line between "reasonable" and "unreasonable" search.

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aborgman

How is it more invasive than having someone follow you and watch your car? I would argue it is LESS invasive. All it can do is say where your car is. Someone following you can see into your car and know a bit about what you are doing.
 

aborgman

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
210
Re: And I thought warrantless wiretaps were bad!!!!!!

How is it more invasive than having someone follow you and watch your car? I would argue it is LESS invasive. All it can do is say where your car is. Someone following you can see into your car and know a bit about what you are doing.

How is it more invasive for someone to stand on your property looking through your windows than standing in the street looking through your windows?

There is a significant difference in investment necessary to actually follow a car, likelihood of failure, etc. It's a very different thing.

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aborgman
 

v1_0

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Messages
575
Re: And I thought warrantless wiretaps were bad!!!!!!

How is it more invasive for someone to stand on your property looking through your windows than standing in the street looking through your windows?

This analogy doesn't follow. The GPS can only show where your car is. No further information - cannot tell if you are in the car, what you are saying, doing, or what you may have in the car.

The 'live tail' can tell where your car is, and anything they may see: including if you are in-fact in the car, what you are wearing, some of what you may bring into/outof the car. They can - if they lip read - even know some of what you are saying. (Although I don't think it is admissible in court, let's say its not to avoid that tangent).

It's pretty clear to me which is less invasive, or at least which one provides more information without the warrant. And, the second is subject to greater error - and greater abuse.

There is a significant difference in investment necessary to actually follow a car, likelihood of failure, etc. It's a very different thing.

Yes, I can agree with this - there is more effort involved with manually following a car. However, the level of effort does not correlate to invasive or non-invasive. Mounting cameras at every intersection would even be more effort and resource intensive. Using a satellite, a helecopter - also more effort and resource intensive.

The second ammendment isn't about the resources or effort. Its about stating that personal property should not be *examined* without a warrant. The outside of the container - your car - can be clearly seen without anything needing to be open. The second amendment search protection covers the contents of your car - it cannot be searched without a warrent for things inside of it. The outside of your car, being clearly visible, requires no search warrant to look at. The information provided by the GPS is no different - actually even less - than is provided by having someone look at the outside of your car.

The only thing that I can see that would be invasive is if someone were to place something inside your car - such as the GPS device. This also doesn't fall under the restrictions of the ammendment (not a search), but I would agree that it is illegal to do something like that. (Breaking and entering) Placing the GPS device under a bumper also dosn't violate the second ammendment - no search - but does seem to violate some property rights.

Obviously, NY agrees with your view. That's fine by me, but I'm not going to be surprised if it changes in a few (or more) years as more technical saavy judges and lawyers rise through the ranks.
 

aborgman

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Mar 30, 2007
Messages
210
Re: And I thought warrantless wiretaps were bad!!!!!!

The only thing that I can see that would be invasive is if someone were to place something inside your car - such as the GPS device. This also doesn't fall under the restrictions of the ammendment (not a search), but I would agree that it is illegal to do something like that. (Breaking and entering) Placing the GPS device under a bumper also dosn't violate the second ammendment - no search - but does seem to violate some property rights.

This involves either someone attaching a device to a car - or extracting data from a device in the car which is owned by the car owner. The latter is obviously a search. In my opinion, the former is also a search that fails the "reasonable" test of the fourth amendment.

Obviously, NY agrees with your view. That's fine by me, but I'm not going to be surprised if it changes in a few (or more) years as more technical saavy judges and lawyers rise through the ranks.

Incorrect decisions by judges never surprise me. We have a long history of incorrect judgements by the highest court in the land - Dred Scott, Kelo, etc.

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aborgman
 
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