any fuel experts here

[sikpnter]

I was watching the news and saw that alot of gas stations are switching to the ethanol gas, not sure what it is but the first thing that I thought about was my outboard and my oil/fuel pump. Anyone know if this will be an issue with our oms or vro?

 

[ezeke]

Re: any fuel experts here

Not I, but I read a study by people who seemed to be experts. The executive summary is discouraging. Ethanol study

 

[itstippy]

Re: any fuel experts here

There was a HUGE string on fuel a while back. Search under "ethanol" and be prepared to read a while. We had advice from petroleum chemists, outboard experts, roofers, and alchemists.<br />I am afraid for my outboards because they were built before anyone ever though of wasting perfectly good moonshine by burning it when petroleum was so plentiful for that purpose. Guys that know say they see deterioration of rubber components (hoses, orings, diaphrams) due to ethanol. Brand-new etecs don't use rubber made from tree sap. My 50 year old babies? At risk!

 

[Walker]

Re: any fuel experts here

Alcohol is a "drier" and will eventually dry out any rubber components in your fuel system. How long before you have problems? Who knows. <br />I'd install a good filter as close to the carbs as possible and be prepared to do the carbs with new kits every couple of years.<br />It shouldn't hurt the engine itself.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: any fuel experts here

First lets make sure we are talking about ethanol blended fuel that we in the midwest have been using for years and that other states are now just getting around to using. This is 85% regular gas and 15% ethanol. Ethanol is a great fuel system cleaner so very old engines and those that don't get used much will likely have some carb issues after running a few tanks. Varnish and other deposits will be loosened and will require carb rebuilds and filter replacements. In fact this may happen a couple of times in rapid succession. Once clean however, the engine will live happily on this blend. Older cars will likely experience the same issues. Carry an extra fuel filter with you. If your engine begins to act up, don't continue to run it as it is telling you its running lean and that can be a costly problem if not taken care of. Then there is E-85 which is just the opposite formula. Its 85% ethanol and 15% regular gas. My new Impala runs on it. We have over 200 stations that peddle E-85 in Minnesota and that fuel is 20 - 50 cents/gal cheaper than regular gas but you don't get quite as good of fuel mileage. Do not use E-85 in your outboard.

 

[sikpnter]

Re: any fuel experts here

sounds like fun!

 

[ezeke]

Re: any fuel experts here

I just happened to look back at this thread because of an article on GM in US News, So it is the first time that I saw the comment by Upinsmoke.<br /><br />I have to say that it is good that ethanol is 50 cents less than gasoline. A vehicle that runs 16 miles per gallon of gasoline will only run 12 miles on a gallon of ethanol. That is significant for boaters because of both limited fuel capacity and weight.<br /><br />I am not aware of any attempt by outboard manufacturers to retrofit for ethanol so its use is still a risky experiment at best.<br /><br />GM has modified its vehicles to run on ethanol. Chrysler and Ford have done some as well.<br /> Ethanol Article

 

[JB]

Re: any fuel experts here

Outboard non-repair topic.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: any fuel experts here

Ethanol is 105 octane so it does provide a performance boost at the expense of slightly less mileage. I'm seeing 2-3 miles per gallon but I've only had the car a short time. Don't get me wrong -- I'm not suggesting running E-85 in marine engines. I only wanted to point out that E-85 and ethanol blended fuel are not the same. I had one problem with blended fuel. It ate the lining and fuel pickup out of the fuel tank on my chain saw. Cleaned it up, resealed the tank, installed a new line and hasn't missed a beat since. Ran blended fuel in my last Evinrude (1995) until last year. One carb rebuild due to curiosity rather than necessity. Carbs were spotless. Older engines may have some issues. I would suspect that the OEM carb rebuild parts have been ethanol friendly for some time.

 

[walleyehed]

Re: any fuel experts here

Where's QC at??? He's tested all this stuff..it's his Job.<br />Quite Cat, where ya at man???

 

[bucky4]

Re: any fuel experts here

If ethanol is an octane boost, how does that lower your mileage????<br /><br />Every octane and cetane booster I've ever read about always claim to improve mileage!

 

[swist]

Re: any fuel experts here

Octane and mileage have nothing directly to do with each other. Higher octane gas detonates at a higher compression ratio so you can get more power before it starts knocking. What affect that has on your gas mileage is related to many factors.

 

[QC]

Re: any fuel experts here

Thanks for the mention Kenny. You'll notice that I rarely post in two-cycle fora as I have no professional or personal experience. I happen to be with a couple of our guys though, and in the labs they have done some 2 cycle development work on Yammies. They agree that without an O2 sensor, E85 would cause both a lean mixture and low power. This is due to the lower energy content per given volume of E85 of approximately 30% vs. gasoline. With an O2 sensor the lean issue is eliminated, but not all of the low power problem. Automotive FFVs have the ability to completely compensate for both.<br /><br />I agree that Octane and energy content have very little to do with each other. Higher octane allows higher performance, but it does not cause it. You can't, for example, get the benefit of higher compression capability (higher octane) without changing the pistons or adding a blower. So, yes, ethanol can increase performance, but only if the engine and fuel system are designed with that in mind.<br /><br />Based on my understanding it is the lean condition issues that would keep me from running E85 in any marine engine without an O2 sensor (all?). In addition, I don't know very many boaters that want less power . . . I vote no <br /><br />Edit: As noted in the other thread and this one, 10% ethanol negates the concerns I list. The issues rise proportionally to the percentage of ethanol added.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: any fuel experts here

E-85 is 105 octane and burns faster. The faster burn requires more fuel. That translates to increased performance but not fuel economy. E-85 may cause starting problems when temperatures get below 32 degrees. Part of the E-85 package is a block heater. The manufacturers recommend getting the 85% figure down to 70% ethanol at colder temps by adding regular fuel. To clarify again, E-85 and regular blended fuel are not the same. Blended fuel will work in older engines except for the possibility of some fuel system clean-up issues. E-85 should not be used.

 

[Texasmark]

Re: any fuel experts here

You guys need to back off and read what you wrote.<br /><br />Here I'm reading that ethanol blend is 105 octane (vs 87 for regular gas) yet you loose 2-3 mpg???????????????????<br /><br />To name one misnomer.<br /><br />Mark

 

[QC]

Re: any fuel experts here

Texasmark,<br /><br />Octane has nothing to do with energy content. Energy makes stuff go, not octane. Octane is one thing and one thing only, resistance to detonation (knock, ping, pre-ignition). UIS is incorrect as well, actually higher octane fuel is harder to burn, not easier . . . that's why it doesn't knock as easily. Ethanol contains less energy in a given volume than Gasoline (approximately 30% less), so if you compare a gallon, liter, whatever, it can only produce 30% less power which also translates to 30% less distance which results in 30% less MPG. What should be compared is not MPG, but miles per dollar. That is what you really care about . . . <br /><br /><br />Gasoline has approximately 114,000 BTU's per liquid gallon of stored heat in it (energy), E85 (85% Ethanol, 15% Gasoline) has approximately 80,000 BTU's per gallon, Propane (LPG) has approximately 84,000 BTU's per gallon. Not all fuels magically contain the same energy. Diesel contains approximately 128,000 BTU's per gallon . . .<br /><br />Trust me on this, it is what I do for a living

 

[BillP]

Re: any fuel experts here

Ok, but what years are the division between ok and not ok to run ethanol in outboards? Anybody know?

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: any fuel experts here

I don't know, but I would like to.....

 

[QC]

Re: any fuel experts here

I think it is more about the percentage of ethanol to gasoline in the blend, than what year. Based on my understanding, after talking to our development engineers, 10% ethanol should be OK for any year model engine in any application.<br /><br />It is the E85 stuff that should probably not be used in any marine engine . . .

 

[imported_Curmudgeon]

Re: any fuel experts here

Here I'm reading that ethanol blend is 105 octane (vs 87 for regular gas) yet you loose 2-3 mpg???????????????????<br /><br />Wow, I guess it's premium from now on (92 v 87 octane). If it only increases 1 mpg, it might just pay foritself; 2 or 3 mpg and it's happy days again. Not!<br /><br />Somehow I think that's wishful thinking, since octane rating has never had much to do with mileage. Were that the case, you can bet makers would specify premium in order to capture more favorable MPG numbers. I've yet to see any substantiated data that indicates ethanol blends do anything beneficial for the vehicle, including saving oil; lots of claims, little empirical data.