Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

[gtochris]

If this thread needs to be closed I understand due to not wanting to create brand preferences. If it can be discussed, I think this could be enlightening. I think many of us can agree that most every manufacturer has stepped up the quality in the last decade.

Another item, when reading boat tests, I find most editors are thrilled to have something to test/ write about and it isnt as objective as an auto review as I dont think I've ever read a less then delightful boat test... Having driven MANY boats, I feel I know in the first 2 minutes if I like it or not.

I was a kid when my father bought our first boat in the early 90's, it was a Regal leftover and I remember him seeking out a quality boat was issue for him. Looking back, that model had lots of flaws from blisters to interior trimming and it was essentially falling apart at the seams within a decade. The modern Regal seems to have come a long ways!

A friend of mine said he doesn?t think too highly of Crownline build quality which surprised me as I thought they weren?t an issue. I know Bayliners had a bad rap but the new ones look sweet and a huge step up! My Stingray I feel is bottom of the barrel quality, better then that Regal, but I am sure the newer Stingrays are an improvement and larger more expensive models of the era are probably built better also.

So are they all a crapshoot? Anything short of a Donzi, Formula, Cobalt fit in the same mediocre quality?

 

[oops!]

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

with the down turn in the industry......tons of builders got weeded out.

the builders now are fighting for there lives. to do this....they have to concentrate on customer relations, and go the extra 100 miles.
the other thing they are doing, is making changes to the line, so that they can delver the same product with less materials, (this means changing the cut templates.) and making slight changes to the lay out so that the could keep profitability in the construction. (using less carpet, cutting the upholstery differently, using some different materials.)

the boats and builders that are left. are pretty lean as far as the line goes. and product testing is up.

regal has switched to a different approach as far as selling in there upper cruiser range. thet fly you to the plant, wine and dine you, tour you.....and when you leave, you own a new boat,,,,a lot of times, custom to you. (this means they have not built it yet)

the entry level boats like the bay liners and trackers, are still what they are,,,,,lower quality fit and finish......but the overall boat is still good. i pitty the high end guys like chris craft.....they are pricing them selves right out of the market place.....i saw 20 foot runabouts in the 65k range. beautiful boat.....but it sat there.

if a person was to buy a new boat today, i would assume that the dealer ship would bend over backwards to get the deal.

as far as blisters, gellcoat cracking, and other issues........some of these things are just the demon in production.......gellcoat crazing because the gellcoat pools in the bottom of the mold during production, is tough to get rid of with out a machine spraying. but a machine cannot beat an eye for the swath speed of the temperature/humidity sensitive materials.

seams coming apart, other things like that, due to anything from bad bobbin tension, to uv on the thread, could be argued at the dealer ship within a few seasons. but a well kept boat will eliminate most of the interior issues

 

[southkogs]

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

Bubba, you're probably not too far off there: Consider what Oops said and then think of it from a marketing perspective. Nobody would argue that Mastercraft is a crumby boat, but it wasn't really mentioned by the OP. The boat style/type/usage/stereo-wattage was probably (total guessing) not in the mix of his taste (like perhaps Donzi, Formula or Cobalt). Until you get into the more custom "who really cares about money anyway" boats, what is really selling at the moment is the "sizzle."

 

[gtochris]

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

Bubba, you're probably not too far off there: Consider what Oops said and then think of it from a marketing perspective. Nobody would argue that Mastercraft is a crumby boat, but it wasn't really mentioned by the OP. The boat style/type/usage/stereo-wattage was probably (total guessing) not in the mix of his taste (like perhaps Donzi, Formula or Cobalt). Until you get into the more custom "who really cares about money anyway" boats, what is really selling at the moment is the "sizzle."

I think off shore CC boats have generally been built pretty well, Ski boats seem to take a beating and hold up to thousands of hours. Shame a boat like a Master Craft costs near 100K! I'm actually happy to see some of the new smaller brands pop up, Their has to be a way to produce a wakeboard boat for less as many have excess electronics these days and accessories most people will never use.

Where does Larson or Glasstron rank these days? Both brands have been around FOREVER and been through it all. The Larson 20 Senza has my attention and seems like a good bang for the buck performance bowrider.

Sea Ray, they are the benchmark for many and even non boat people know what a Sea Ray is. I look at the 205 Sport vs the 20 SLX, the SLX is more upright and takes the place of the "Select series", looks more posh and has a deeper hull but is WAY more then the Sport. Do they just take something out of the Sport or construct it lesser?

 

[BTMCB]

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

I am no expert nor have I owned many boats - so I can only comment on the brands I have experienced "first hand". I bought my present boat new about 2 months ago and am pleased with the quality, performance and workmanship. My previous boat was a Maxum that I bought new in 2009 (it was a left over). While much less money than the current one, it was a great boat that served me well and I was pleased with the quality. Maxum was part of the Brunswick family - between the Bayliner and the Sea Ray. While I am sure every manufacturer has it's "lemons", I haven't bought a lemon yet.......knock wood!! I know there are boat brands with good and bad "reputations". I would imagine some of the "reputations" are accurate and based upon one's actual experience with a boat but other "reputations" are not based upon one's actual experience or first hand knowledge. If I want to know about brand xxxxx, I want to hear from one who has actually owned an xxxxx, not from someone who simply bashes a brand because of his opinion of the "reputation". There are "entry" level boats and "luxury" boats - just like cars - and you generally get what pay for. And, how one maintains the boat is as important, if not more important, than "brand" when buying used IMHO.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

there are a lot of changes, FBOW, when one boat company goes out of business and is bought by another.
Sometimes, the one on its way down has cut quality.
The buyer might try to correct that, keep things as is, or try to capitalize on the name as long as it can push shoddy product out the door.
So you really can't rely on brand name without researching the continuity of the company and its quality. And you can't go by reviews in fishing mags--I have never seen a negative comment, not even a weak attempt to appear objective. They should be disregarded by serious buyers, other than cold facts.
I agree with the comment that the basic boat has the basic quality; they fall apart with the features. You don't hear about hulls flying apart, but folding seats, gadgets, cushions, low-quality hardware does. On a low end or mid market but, the less of that, the better. That's why the fishing boats hold their condition (and value) better.

 

[JimS123]

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

A friend of mine said he doesn?t think too highly of Crownline build quality which surprised me as I thought they weren?t an issue. I know Bayliners had a bad rap but the new ones look sweet and a huge step up! My Stingray I feel is bottom of the barrel quality, better then that Regal, but I am sure the newer Stingrays are an improvement and larger more expensive models of the era are probably built better also.

So are they all a crapshoot? Anything short of a Donzi, Formula, Cobalt fit in the same mediocre quality?

I bought our present "family boat" in 1984 - a Stingray. Reportedly, that was their 5th year of production. They got rave reviews from Powerboats Magazine at the time for their responsiveness and performance with small engines, but got negative reviews as far as their lamination schedule. I bought it anyway because of the ergonomics and utility, plus a buddy had a 1982 model and it was a winner.

Between '84 and '92 several friends, relatives and acquaintences bought a Regal, a Searay, a Celebrity, a Formula, a Bayliner and a Maxim. All are used in the relatively choppy waters of Lake Erie, and all were maintained reasonably well.

I still have the Stingray. The Celebrity has undergone an expensive restoration to rebuild the rotten innards - only because he could afford to do that but couldn't aford a new boat. The rest didn't survive the years and have been sold long ago.

As you pointed out the Bayliners didn't hold up well. Maxim's aren't far behind. What surprised me was how bad the '88 SeaRay held up and it didn't compare favorably to my Stingray when they were both new. The newer Searays don't look much better. (we're talking about 20 footers here not 40 footers that are in a different class).

The '88 Regal and Celebrity are other disappointments - neither stood the test of time.

Crownline - just my opinion but I think they are ugly....LOL. My buddy's Formula may be better than some, but based on his 1990ish model's longevity I wouldn't buy one!

Anybody that knows me knows my love for Stingrays. We added a Cuddy to the fleet in 2007. Say what you want, but even after 27 years she still has not a single crack or blister in the hull. Can't say that for ANY of the other ones I mentioned. I could easily afford a new boat, but have opted to keep the old one because she does everything I want her to do, and I haven't found another that I like better.

 

[dockwrecker]

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

I think in general the past 5 years has been an upswing in standard equipment as counter rotating props are no longer a novelty, 4 stroke outboards are the norm, EFI is common etc. Higher tech is common now and it's improved the breed of new boats. There's little doubt that for the manufacturer to get the dollars, just an entry level price doesn't cut it much anymore. I still see new boats out there with nylon bimini brackets and other crap hardware, but less so than than five years ago. Finishes seem to have gone up even if it's still the same old hull they've been building for 10 years, upholstry still seems to be a crapshoot unless you pay for a Cobalt and I see less "parts bin" construction. I see more thought going into designs for longevity. Probably why the strong manufacturers are hanging in there, I think the market has forced them to improve for the most part. Hard to point a finger at a notoriously bad boat brand in this day.
Boat trailers are a completely different matter... Just sayin.

 

[Fireman431]

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

Personally, I think you'll find the differences are going to remarkably minimal when it comes to the construction of the boat itself. All manufacturers have to comply with NMMA specifications regarding hull design, construction, wiring, fire prevention, plumbing, etc. The major differences used to be fit & finish, but that was before the days of CAD design and production. Molds, parts, and pieces are now created with much higher tolerances, as are the engine/drive systems themselves. Much as an auto engine used to be at the end of it's life cycle at 100,000 miles, technology has now allowed some engines to go without a major tune-up until 100,000 miles. I think the people that pointed to the quality of SS hardware, upholstery fabrics, stereos, and amenities included with the boat (biminis, covers, bigger engines, etc) were right on target. The manufacturer & dealer will leave these items off to get the boat more available to the buyer at a lower price and try to make the money back as features available at an additional cost.

 

[zagger]

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

I bought our present "family boat" in 1984 - a Stingray. Reportedly, that was their 5th year of production. They got rave reviews from Powerboats Magazine at the time for their responsiveness and performance with small engines, but got negative reviews as far as their lamination schedule. I bought it anyway because of the ergonomics and utility, plus a buddy had a 1982 model and it was a winner.

Between '84 and '92 several friends, relatives and acquaintences bought a Regal, a Searay, a Celebrity, a Formula, a Bayliner and a Maxim. All are used in the relatively choppy waters of Lake Erie, and all were maintained reasonably well.

I still have the Stingray. The Celebrity has undergone an expensive restoration to rebuild the rotten innards - only because he could afford to do that but couldn't aford a new boat. The rest didn't survive the years and have been sold long ago.

As you pointed out the Bayliners didn't hold up well. Maxim's aren't far behind. What surprised me was how bad the '88 SeaRay held up and it didn't compare favorably to my Stingray when they were both new. The newer Searays don't look much better. (we're talking about 20 footers here not 40 footers that are in a different class).

The '88 Regal and Celebrity are other disappointments - neither stood the test of time.

Crownline - just my opinion but I think they are ugly....LOL. My buddy's Formula may be better than some, but based on his 1990ish model's longevity I wouldn't buy one!

Were these brands bought new or used. I would venture the demise of certain brands can be more attributed to upkeep and maintenance issues than built quality. I recently purchased a Regal that replaced my 12 year old Maxum. After 12 years and mostly salt water use the boat looked showroom fresh and only thing aside of regular maintenance was that I replaced the riser. I would call the Maxum a great boat, especially for the money. There is nothing "off the shelf" on the new Regal. All the hardware is top notch stainless specifically build for the model. Everything down to how the wires are routed and secured is immaculate and if you consider transferable life time hull warranty I think it will age well. One thing I did notice that brands like Sea Ray that are produced by larger manufacturers in larger quantities tend to have more "off the shelf" components and the material choices in the building of interiors are more cost conscious than some of the smaller companies. This might be a reason that boats like Master Craft, Cobalt, Regal, etc cost little more. I also would venture and say that due to advancement in technology and construction methods a new Bayliner will be better built than a 23 year old Regal, Celebrity, Formula, Maxum, etc.

 

[86 century]

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

I have seen that most of the builders today have gone to all composite construction.
With no wood to waste away I would think in the future a complete rebuild would consist of repower,new seats and maybe some paint.

What are we all gana do all winter when we are willing to afford an all glass rig with solid decks,stingers and transome.

 

[5150abf]

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

As I understand it we are the exception but at Bennington we seriously can't build them fast enough and are hitting the highest production numbers we have run in our 15 year history with plans to go higher, I honestly don't understand it but am very very glad.

In my 25 years I have been part of building close to 100,000 boats, where do they all go????????

Part of it is at the bottom of the down turn our owner CEO decided to redesign the entire line where other companies just made the same boat they had last year, it was a very expensive and risky move but it paid off as we have a 20%+ market share with the toon segment off by 65% from pre crash numbers.

I have been in the buisness for 25 years so I know it can crash at any minute with a cold summer ect but for now it is pretty nice.

 

[southkogs]

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

One thing that comes into play is design. Much like the auto industry innovation in design is getting harder to make significant because designers and engineers are all taught by the same instruction methods and are encouraged to take the least amount of risk in design that they can. If people are buying SUV's, don't rock the boat and design a minivan. In our day and age the '58 Eldorado wouldn't have made it off the sketchpad ... it's way to risky. The same is true in boats, and that means that most (not all) manufacturers are building "me too" boats (or mostly anyway). There are still some unique things out there, but you're gonna' pay through the nose for them (as a general statement).

 

[gtochris]

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

Anybody that knows me knows my love for Stingrays. We added a Cuddy to the fleet in 2007. Say what you want, but even after 27 years she still has not a single crack or blister in the hull. Can't say that for ANY of the other ones I mentioned. I could easily afford a new boat, but have opted to keep the old one because she does everything I want her to do, and I haven't found another that I like better.

Dont you pull yours and park it in a garage every time? If that is the case then I'm sure you could pass it on for 40+ more years.

I would purchase most any newer brand and boats I'm looking at are all 2003+ era. New Regal's are beautiful, and I would shop another Stingray if it came available because I find them to be a good bang for the buck, just would want a deeper V one next time. I do know some people who had to replace stringers/ decks on Sea Rays but they were boats that rarely were covered properly so I blame that. It really comes down to what is forsale in your area, we had a big Wellcraft dealer here up to the mid 90's so we have LOTS of old wellcrafts running around! Same goes for Sea Rays as a big dealer is on our lake.

 

[JimS123]

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

Dont you pull yours and park it in a garage every time? If that is the case then I'm sure you could pass it on for 40+ more years.

I would purchase most any newer brand and boats I'm looking at are all 2003+ era. New Regal's are beautiful, and I would shop another Stingray if it came available because I find them to be a good bang for the buck, just would want a deeper V one next time. I do know some people who had to replace stringers/ decks on Sea Rays but they were boats that rarely were covered properly so I blame that. It really comes down to what is forsale in your area, we had a big Wellcraft dealer here up to the mid 90's so we have LOTS of old wellcrafts running around! Same goes for Sea Rays as a big dealer is on our lake.

Yes, its garaged and covered when not in the water. That's why the stringers are solid. The point I was making was that it has seen some heavy use in heavy seas without any issues at all. In contrast, the SeaRay my buddy has is literally falling apart with the same usage - seats coming loose, windshield rattles, craze crackling gel coat.

 

[ezmobee]

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

I don't think anyone is making a crap boat these days. However, due to some of the anecdotal evidence I've seen on this and other forums about how Tracker Marine handles quality issues, anything made by them would not be on my short list. In the past, early Bayliners, Sunbirds, and Spectrum Blue Fins were pretty poorly constructed.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: Are all manufacturers up to par these days?

Yeah, I wouldn't really consider SeaRay for a smaller than 24' boat, as they don't seem to carry the same level of attention to detail as their larger craft. I think Four Winns and Bryant should be considered as great mid-tier runabouts if that's the style you are looking for. Lots of design and amenities you'd find on a Cobalt, but significantly lower price. As always though, if you have the cash, get the Cobalt. I know of hardly anyone who has been disappointed by their Cobalt's quality.