As a complete outsider .......

[QC]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Great thread Andrew, and there are definitely some every thoughtful answers. Kudos to aspeck!!

I think that Mr Bush has finally lost the plot.

I am curious what specifically has lead you to this conclusion.

Personally, I think the add more troops thing is a brilliant political and tactical move. Fact is, we are there and America should not accept leaving a country or her Vets in shambles. How can anyone thinking rationally be "against" adding more help? The families of those already there would obviously want their loved ones surrounded with more support. And opposing more help doesn't seem directly supportive of our troops either. I think he has reminded congress of who is in control of the military and they can do nothing but play along. Unless you are in favor of leaving something messier than you found it, you've got to "stay the course" . . .

I still believe that history will judge this war and this president kindly.

 

[Tail_Gunner]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Great thread Andrew, and there are definitely some every thoughtful answers. Kudos to aspeck!!

I think that Mr Bush has finally lost the plot.

I am curious what specifically has lead you to this conclusion.

Personally, I think the add more troops thing is a brilliant political and tactical move. Fact is, we are there and America should not accept leaving a country or her Vets in shambles. How can anyone thinking rationally be "against" adding more help? The families of those already there would obviously want their loved ones surrounded with more support. And opposing more help doesn't seem directly supportive of our troops either. I think he has reminded congress of who is in control of the military and they can do nothing but play along. Unless you are in favor of leaving something messier than you found it, you've got to "stay the course" . . .

I still believe that history will judge this war and this president kindly.

Agreed, what ever his motive's, he is cutting new ground, And as stated here many time's it's damm loney @ the top............... and that's were we are America...... At The Top like it or not.

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

I still believe that history will judge this war and this president kindly. ......

*ROLLEYES*.....
I CANNOT AGREE WITH YOU!
I believe that it is throwing good lives & money after bad.....
So to speak.........JK

---

 

[Andrew Leigh]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Hi QC,

obviously the news we get here has a different bias to what you get to hear and read. Although Mr Bush may go down well in the States he tends to lack the charisma that perhaps some of his predessors had. This I think makes him less marketable to the outside world (not that it matters) and he comes in for a lot more stick than perhaps Mr Clinton would have and consequently I think the outside press is tougher on him.

I think that many people to the east of you consider that Iraq may well have the makings of another Vietnam. I don't believe that we get the in depth story that perhaps you guys get.

Yes one does need to stay the course and yes pouring in more troops is probably right given the current circumstances.

Where I think the plot has been lost is that perhaps the horse may have already bolted and that the issue may have escalted to one that is perhaps not recoverable. 20 000 troops months ago may have been more expedient but hey hindsight is a perfect science. But then again as I have learnt, to my cost, you can only make decisions based information, bad info bad decision.

My view is a perception rather than and informed opinion. Often on this forum the political party bashing gets so bad that it is very difficult to get an opinion that is not inflamed hence my question which was not designed to malign a leader or a party but to hear what you guys, who are affected think.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[WillyBWright]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

And we like to hear what the rest of the world hears too. What we get is usually so convoluded that we have a hard time picking real news from manufactured news. Hype and spin from facts and figures. Our media is often in such a hurry to get the news out first that the facts often are misreported causing a lot of confusion and a lot of quoting of misinformation which tends to gain credibility with each telling.

Such was the case with the Bush administration's tying 9/11 to Iraq which many here will go to their graves believing was the complete undeniable truth when in reality it was thoroughly investigated and proven not to be the case at all. Many here believe that by quoting a newspaper article that it is equivlent to quoting the Bible. My answer to that is to quote Secretary Powell from events leading to our invasion of Iraq, then quote Colin Powell recently. The stories are 180 degrees apart. Just because it's in print doesn't make it true. Even if the source has an otherwise good reputation.

In Powell's defense, it was what he believed to be true at that time or it simply wouldn't have had a prayer of coming out of his mouth (well, maybe with a dash of imbellishment mixed in from loyalty to Bush Sr. ). Events afterward proved many things untrue. Doesn't make him a liar. Just makes him wrong. Welcome the human race. Happens sometimes. But he evolves with the situation as it unfolds and it takes a lot of guts to admit you were wrong. Others take a little longer from pride.

Only 17% of us approve of this latest escalation. Many think it's too little too late, or that it's just prolonging the inevetible and making the outcome geometically worse with each passing season. We'll see. Whatever the outcome, it's success or failure will probably define George W. Bush's Presidency.

The majority you see here on iboats doesn't necessarily represent the majority of the citizenry. Boatowners have a screw loose to begin with. It's required. Why else would one buy a hole in the water to pour money into? We're weird by definition. So the ratio might appear a bit tipsy.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Oldmercs, I think we will need to agree to disagree. That is what it great about this nation, we are free to have different opinions...THAT is a benefit of those of us who have served, and that is why some of us refuse to have our views insulted and degraded.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

JasonJ says:

Oldmercs, I think we will need to agree to disagree. That is what it great about this nation, we are free to have different opinions...THAT is a benefit of those of us who have served, and that is why some of us refuse to have our views insulted and degraded.

Hey Jason, Please accept my appology. I thanked you for your service, which I truly feel is very admirable and as you state: the basis of all of our freedoms, (but that fact does not necessarily make vets better then everybody else), and it does not make their views beyond a 'friendly' challenge they have fought to preserve. What did I say here to insult or degrade your views? I thought you and I were fairly close to the same position on this thread. You simply called WbW's post "speculation", which I characterised as "mind reading" because the Liberal authors Willy's post sumerizes have absolutely no way of knowing if thier often repeated statements are true. I just went over WbW's excellent post point by point to make my point crystal clear to Andrew and others. Same basic statement, mine just has a little partisn edge, and your is polite. No offense meant Jason.

 

[QC]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Although Mr Bush may go down well in the States . . .

Well he definitely doesn't "go down well" here. The guy can't do anything right if you listen to most.

. . . he tends to lack the charisma that perhaps some of his predessors had. This I think makes him less marketable to the outside world (not that it matters) and he comes in for a lot more stick than perhaps Mr Clinton would have and consequently I think the outside press is tougher on him.

Absolutely, 100% agree. Perception is reality and he does NOT lend himself to a good perception. His body language and facial expressions are horrible. And he is too open about his faith even though it is one of the things I like about the guy. This piece is very complicated to me, I do not want a President that is considered a "religious nut", however, I do want one who is willing to acknowledge faith and respects the role of religion in America's formation, culture and values. I think Bush is considered by many as more of the former. Again, perception is reality.

I think that many people to the east of you consider that Iraq may well have the makings of another Vietnam. I don't believe that we get the in depth story that perhaps you guys get.

A lot hear feel the same. We probably do get a better balance of our news these days, but that is only because of FOX IMHO. The other major networks here are pretty much the same as each other and CNN International and the BBC IMHO basically report opinion. I expect to take some heat for this comment, but I stand by it. I am struck by a quote of Christiane Amanpour's that "good journalism can make this world a better place". To me that comment assures bias, because she will report in favor of her view of this "better place". She is probably the most revered international correspondent in the world, and yet I believe she does not even understand her role. So, yes, if your news comes from the BBC and CNN, I believe it is biased. I am not contending that our news is not, we just may get more of it, so if one is responsible, there is a sort of balance that may filter out of all of it.

I guess I was confused by the "lost the plot" thing because it sounded more like a recent change. I am struggling myself with what "should" be done in Iraq. The only thing that makes sense to me is to stick with it. We have definitely stirred up a hornet's nest. That makes it our responsibility. I don't spend any time worrying now about how we got there, just what do we do now. There is no doubt in my mind though, that change and careful monitoring of the Middle East is important and required. Islamic fundamentalist terror is a real concern for the entire planet, passively watching as the ranks grow does not seem like a good plan anymore . . . Yes, hornets are best when left alone, but these hornets were venturing out to find victims. No, not Iraqi's specifically, but again, we are there, so we must see it through.

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

WbW states:

Such was the case with the Bush administration's tying 9/11 to Iraq which many here will go to their graves believing was the complete undeniable truth when in reality it was thoroughly investigated and proven not to be the case at all. Many here believe that by quoting a newspaper article that it is equivlent to quoting the Bible. My answer to that is to quote Secretary Powell from events leading to our invasion of Iraq, then quote Colin Powell recently. The stories are 180 degrees apart. Just because it's in print doesn't make it true. Even if the source has an otherwise good reputation.

In Powell's defense, it was what he believed to be true at that time or it simply wouldn't have had a prayer of coming out of his mouth (well, maybe with a dash of imbellishment mixed in from loyalty to Bush Sr. ). Events afterward proved many things untrue. Doesn't make him a liar. Just makes him wrong. Welcome the human race. Happens sometimes. But he evolves with the situation as it unfolds and it takes a lot of guts to admit you were wrong. Others take a little longer from pride.

Only 17% of us approve of this latest escalation. Many think it's too little too late, or that it's just prolonging the inevetible and making the outcome geometically worse with each passing season. We'll see. Whatever the outcome, it's success or failure will probably define George W. Bush's Presidency.

Hey Willy, Some more thoughtfull mind readin' on your part: my friend. I agree with your "speculation" and also doubt that Mr. Powell, (or the rest of the administration for that matter), would have knowingly made false statements, or even intentionally come to the wrong conclusions about WMD's just to lead us to war to help their buds at Haliburton, avenge HW Bush's failed assasination attempt, help 'big oil' or the other ridiculas statements that Liberals frequently make. Respectfully, (and I mean it) JR

 

[Haut Medoc]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

As the "Great Communicator" would say:
"There you go again!".....*ROLLEYES*

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

Very good reply QC, maybe you will get heat for stating the obvious about media bias, so what? It's true! GW Bush is not a very good speaker, (nor was his father), but his lack of popularity in the rest of the world has much less to do with his speaking or charisma issues then his idology. Ronald Reagan was frequently protested and hated in Europe and much of the rest of the world, yet his charisma and speaking abilities were some of the best we have ever seen in modern times. Respectfully JR

 

[crunch]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

OMR, give me a PM.... I tried it with you but it won't let me.

 

[JasonJ]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

I wasn't insulted by anything Oldmercs, just sayin' we are not agreeing on mindreading. It's cool....

 

[OldMercsRule]

Re: As a complete outsider .......

I wasn't insulted by anything Oldmercs, just sayin' we are not agreeing on mindreading. It's cool....

Hey Jason, Glad you were not insulted, as that was not my intent. Please explain what the difference between the "speculation" you stated, (which is exactly what WbW was repeating, that is often stated by Liberals); and my characterization: "mindreading"? I think that when you "speculate" about what someone intends to do, or their true motives, without any proof or corroberating statement from the party you are speculating about: you are attempting to read their mind. Where am I wrong here? If you agree, then why are we so far apart other then you choose a word that is more polite but less discriptive of the actual event then the word I choose. Respectfully JR