ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Toad2001

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Boomyal:<br />Such compassionate words you speak...<br />May your family never get hit with a medical tradgedy which is uninsured, and personally financially ruins you.
 

Boomyal

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Toad: Don't wish that on anyone either, it's just that there should be no one on God's green earth that has the right to "make" me or you be compassionate. Our collective energy should be directed to the root of the problem, not compounding it by giving Big Bro that kind of power. Read your history books.
 

CalicoKid

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

It's the so called conservatives (even the liberals are claiming to be conservative) who are giving away the rediculous amounts of tax money to the undeserving.. <br /><br />Handing out bloated and monopolistic contracts to Haliburton, Boeing, General Electric, and any other military manufacturer that is big enough to get its own CEOs elected into congress or even the vice presidency. <br /><br />Welfare Farmers, Tax credits and reimbursements for losses on crops that are worth more lost than brought to market. In the western states this strategy is big business, plant crops on thousands of acres of worthless land, neglect it, plow it under at the end of the season and hold out your hand for a fed check. This is what GW refers to as "helping family farms". These farmers aren't Mom, Dad, and the boys, they are factory farms managed by CEOs who pay lobbyists to sweet talk (and bribe) your congressmen into handing out your hard earned money to a group of filthy rich suits who've never even seen their "farms".<br /><br />How about the airline industry that the conservatives bailed out in 2002 for fear of bankruptcy and interruption of service? How much did that cost us? Do you all realize the CEOs of American Airlines recieved bonuses in the same year?<br /><br />Almost any subsidy is made not to aid the producer or the consumer, but the middle-man. Tobacco is subsidized because it would not be worth growing anymore due to cost of production versus market value. So the taxpayer buys some tobacco every year for the cigarette companies who are paying the low market price (not including the subsidies) and reaping huge profits from the resale of your tobacco...<br /><br /> which in turn makes millions of people sick many of whom are not insured, but they are treated anyway and the hospitals call it a loss and ask the govt. for reimbursement for their overpriced drugs and treatments...<br /><br /> All the while Pfizer and Pharmacia are giving millions of dollars in campaign contributions to congressmen for market protection for their products (a lot of that money comes from govt. research grants)...<br /><br /> And your insurance company (if you have insurance) has to pay the extorted prices for everybody's treatments and your premiums rise at a rate of at least twice that of inflation anually...<br /><br /> And the one percent of us who own the tobacco companies, the insurance and drug companies, the military and aerospace companies, those of us who earn salaries that are 400 to 4000 times higher than our employees', get a tax cut.<br /><br /> And we argue with each other about liberalism and conservatism because we have been divided and conquered, we blame our problems on crack-moms and immigrants and family welfare and jetskiers :p . We argue and cast votes based on the same tired issues that just never seem to get decided on term after term. We find it easier to gripe at each other than to address the issues with the people who make the laws. We really believe that R and D are different and that capitalism is working like it should, while our money, the representation of all of our talents and work, gets siphoned off and handed to the rich and inaccesible. The Soviet Union worked the same way only they were honest about it.
 

Toad2001

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Boomyal,<br />I live in one of those "commonwealth countries", and have universal healthcare. I also have benefits from my employer who is at the top of the Forbes list. I am however very educated in the fact that so many Americans are sick with serious illnesses that come on sudden and strong. In some sickness instances, the odds are like winning the lottery, but the impact has obviously the exact opposite. Medications and treatment can cost tens of thousands a year.<br />If I lived in the US, I'd be covered by my employer, but I'd gladly help my neighbor and fellow Americans if it meant saving lives.<br />We are talking life and death here. To hell with the history books.
 

Skinnywater

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Nice post Calico Kid!! <br />It's about time Republicrats learn what conservative means! <br />AND YOU AIN"T GONNA LEARN IT FROM RUSH!<br /> Shoot, the Democrats already know what liberalism is.<br /><br />
But SkinnyW, that's an awful conservative viewpoint for someone from CA. I did't think there were to many of you left since California started to be called "The Left Coast"
Yeah, that's the general belief. <br />If you remember the blue/red map of the 2000 election. California looks the same way. Our massive population exists in our large metropolitan areas. Like the rest of the country this is where our liberal votes come from, and it's massive and powerful. The rest of this large state is rural and agriculturally based and staunchly conservative. <br />You might say we are on the front lines. And believe it or not the recall action that so many had such fun with was a major victory to correct this state.<br /><br />Tell you what, you guys vote out Daschle, Kennedy, Clinton and your own idiots and we'll do our best against Boxer. <br />You watch, she's going down next election. :)
 

Skinnywater

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

I live in one of those "commonwealth countries", and have universal healthcare.
Toad, this may sound a little to much like a history book to you. <br />As a free American, I love the feeling I get by paying my own way. While I appreciate your generous offer to help me in my hour of need, it won't be neccesary. As a person that has been born, by gods will, in a country that has given me so much joy and opportunity. And one that has given my family that same, life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. So lucky has my whole family been that my children are the first generation to go on to higher education. Preceeding generations have recognised slight gains through hard work and self accomplishments.<br />This all has given me the thought that not a day goes by that I don't think, feel and experience the fortune of my life.<br />Honestly, If I were to come down with that doom and gloom your talking, I'd still feel so lucky to die a free American.<br />So much strength and well being comes from individual accomplishments. The challenge of making it on your own, with an independence that makes charity, not an option, is the source of my pride and feelings of enormous fortune.<br /><br />This obviously is something a "subject" from a "commonwealth", might do better to understand.<br />Your gifts from your government has made you weaker then I.
 

Boomyal

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Toad2001:<br />Don't get me wrong, I love my Commonwealth cousins. I just think they took the wrong turn on a lot of issues. Gone soft if you will. Personal responsibility is what made this country, not government entitlement programs. My collective neighbor does NOT owe me my physical well being. For me and my family that is between us and our Maker plus any assistance that may be VOLUNTEERED by our local community. The price of Hlllarycare is too steep and I don't mean just in dollars. <br /><br />There are fundemental reasons, that our Forefather's well understood, that you can't give that kind of power to the national government. It is the very same forces that have driven the cost of healthcare to unaffordable levels.<br /><br />And to date, the absence of an entitlement mentality, is what has allowed this country to do all that it has done. Sadly, as you may bear witness, there are forces afoot that are trying to change that. Healthcare is just a part of it. It will be a sad day for America when the majority of Americans feel, as apparently all of our Commonwealth cousins feel, about government entitlements and control.
 

Skinnywater

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Boomyal, we're on the same page. ;)
 

streadway

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

RODBOLT sorry about your dad.i just retired last year after 31 years as an asbestos worker.i know a lot about asbestos related desease.dont want to derail this topic,but e-mail me .
 

plywoody

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Boom,<br /><br />You are arguing a point of view that simply does not exist in the political debate. There does not seem to be any question that some form of health care is necessary--and the question is what form it will take, as opposed to whether or not we will have it.<br /><br />Oh, and you may well be proud that you can work and afford all your own health care, but take the case of my daughter, for example. In 1986, when she was 5 years old, she had to had brain surgery to remove a brain tumor. Now up to that point, she worked as hard as any other 5 year old, but in the end she was dependent on me and my insurance.<br /><br />When the dust settled, the surgery cost approx $147,000. Now we did in fact have insurance, and I got to fight with 2 insurance companies to find out which one was going to pay. This fight lasted almost a year, while the hospital and such were threatening to take me to collection, and ruin my credit rating. It finally got settled, but it took lawyers and a threatened lawsuit to get it done.<br /><br />And I find it obscene that the right wants to deny a woman's right to an abortion, and at the same time wants to refuse to provide health coverage to that child she bears.<br /><br />But no matter what the argument against universal health care, the statistics suggest that countries that have it have a lower infant mortality and higher life expectancy. That seems to be worth something to those countries, even though they tend to spend less per capita on health care than we do.<br /><br />Oh, and I never said that all conservatives are fascists. I only said that equating all "liberals" to socialists is comparable to equating all conservatives to fascists. There are probably some so-called liberals that are socialists, just as there are probably some so-called conservatives that are fascists. The labels just tend to end debate on real issues, and that is too bad.
 

SCO

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Where and when did we all get the idea that we were so special? We are all going to get sick and die and we should all prepare for that because no one is more interested than the individual. There is an infinite amount of money that can be spent in healthcare...where do you draw the line. I don't know the answers, but I do know what will not work. It doesnt work to take the responsibility off the individual. Keep the government out of it as much as possible. Your daughter was lucky to have you providing for her Ply. That's what Fathers/families are for and why breakdown of the family/culture bothers us conservatives so much. Humans existed for some 80,000years wo healthcare. If we can keep the whole of society self sufficient and on the right track, then we may be able to afford to take care of the stragglers. If everyone in the society was productive, then maybe gov helth care would be a giant insurance policy for all and work. Problem is it is coupled with other "rights" like housing, income. Big hunks of people become nonproductive and live on the dole. The productive people percentage becomes less and less. The productive people then also cannot afford to take care of their own families...there is the unfairness and outrage that many of us often express. Most of us have two income families now. That should be a wakeup that we are stretched too thin to be saddled with massive unworkable additional govennment expenses that will ultimately result in greater unproductivity in the general population.
 

Skinnywater

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Excellent SCO, you also are on the same page.<br />It's important to note that your posted view isn't a practiced liberal, Democratic or Republican view. <br />It is a conservative view. <br /><br />plywoody, it would be very constructive to join a greater cause. <br />I'd like to see the Democrats dismantle the current political left. And I'd like to see the the Republicans dismantle the current political right.<br />We'd all be much better off with a Free Republic, with the original intents and purposes.<br />Healthcare, abortion, taxes, and all the current stresses on this country wouldn't be an issue.<br />From your past posts however, I get the idea that you had just as great, if not more, disdain for that system of government, the intended Free Republic.<br /><br />Quote from Boomyal:<br />"There are fundemental reasons, that our Forefather's well understood, that you can't give that kind of power to the national government. It is the very same forces that have driven the cost of healthcare to unaffordable levels."<br /><br />plywoody, this is blatantly relevant to the political debate. <br />Why would you post that it wasn't?
 

Boomyal

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

SCO, You've hit a big nail on the head, on all points. You must have read Atlas Shrugged. I thought this quote to be appropriate here.<br /><br />"The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments."<br />William H. Borah, US Senator, 1907-1940<br /><br />Plywoody, this quote is for you. It is from an individual that hailed from your very same Commonwealth.<br /><br />This memorable quotation is from Sir Alex Fraser Tytler (1742-1813). Scottish jurist and historian, he was widely known in his time and was professor of Universal History at Edinburgh University in the late 18th century.<br /><br /> <br /><br />The quotation is from the 1801 collection of his lectures:<br /><br />"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that time on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the results that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.<br /><br />The average age of the world's great civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:<br /><br />from bondage to spiritual faith; (1)<br /><br />from spiritual faith to great courage; (2)<br /><br />from courage to liberty; (3)<br /><br />from liberty to abundance; (4)<br /><br />from abundance to selfishness; (5)<br /><br />from selfishness to complacency; (6)<br /><br />from complacency to apathy; (7)<br /><br />from apathy to dependency; (8)<br /><br />from dependency back again to bondage." (9)<br /><br /> <br />WHERE ARE WE TODAY ? ? ?<br /><br />No Plywoody if you want to ignore historical recognitions AND the undeniable nature of humans, that's called burying your head in the sand. Fortunately, our Forefathers understood the principles that Sir Alex Tytler espoused and reflected their understanding when they placed the following in the US Constitution;<br /><br />"To provide for the common defense and to PROMOTE (not provide-mine) the general welfare"
 

NOSLEEP

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

#6 selfishness to complacency.
 

Boomyal

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NOSLEEP:<br />I think you took point #6 out of context. The selfishness refered to here is that of:<br />Well now you've given it to me, now it is my right to have it.
 

NOSLEEP

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

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Well I'm givin it some good thought.<br />My brain is starting to smoke...<br />So you think I'm a little ahead of the progression<br />or a little behind?
 

SCO

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Hey, thanks for the comments. My views formed believe it or not , from a study of biology. There are no guarantees in the jungle, but you do have opportunity. Liberal thought insists on turning us into zoo animals, and zoo animals sit around and scratch till feeding time. No thanks.
 

Skinnywater

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

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Well I'm givin it some good thought.<br />My brain is starting to smoke...<br />So you think I'm a little ahead of the progression<br />or a little behind?
That's good humour NOSLEEP. :D <br /><br />I agree, we're somewhere around #6.
 

timothyl

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Skinny, not trying to nit pick but I just want to see where you are going before I give my two cents worth.
Repeal the 17th ammendment, the 16th will follow and the 10th will mean what it says. <br />
The 17th amendment deals ONLY with senators being elected by the people. Prior to this they were elected by the House of Representatives. It seems to me that the 17th amendment did more for putting the power of the government into the peoples hands than taking it away.<br /> <br />Again, not trying to nit pick, but I dont understand the relevence to government expansion.
 

Toad2001

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Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Re: ATTENTION: All you liberals...

Hey Skinnywater,<br />regarding "Your gifts from your government has made you weaker then I.",<br />Its also I suppose what has contributed to the fact that Canada is rated the #3 Best Country in the World to live in compared to the US which is rated at #6.<br />Weaker? How can you say that when your mortality rate is so relatively high?<br /><br /> http://www.undp.org/hdr2001/clips/norway.pdf
 
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