Attn. mechanics need advice

[stl]

A few weeks ago I posted about an egr problem with my 2003 nissan frontier. Check engine light came on. I had my father in law who is a union mechanic check it with an obd. It came out with a 402 which points to the egr valve. He talked me into taking it to the dealership to get it fixed at a tune of 300 dollars. The service advisor did tell me that there was a technical service bulliten out on this issue. The light stayed off for 13 days. Then came back on. I did not really drive the truck that much in that time really only about 10-15 minutes to and from work each day. I had my father in law check it again and it threw the same code. The service advisor at the dealership said that since the light did not come back on right away it is likely a different issue, and that code could mean many different things. Which means I will likely be charged again. I feel like I have already paid for this to be fixed. Am I wrong in thinking that Every thing associated with the egr should have been checked the first time.? Not just what was on the technical service bulliten? I would appreciate any input before I make a big scene down at the dealership. Thanks

 

[thefairlaneman]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

OK It is true that the CEL can come on several times in a short period of time and each time be a differant part of the emmission system showing a differant trouble code or another issue under the same code. In that case as separate repairs you would pay for each repair. (If they charge a diagnostic fee more than once they are tryin to run the bill up beware). They only way to protect yourself is to get a complete UNDERSTANDABLE bill showing what code, what they did and what parts were replaced and ask for the old ones and a copy of the service bulliten .Do you have a copy of or a place to get the bullitin.?

 

[jsfinn]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

It depends - when you took your car in, did you tell them that you think it's an ERG Valve problem? If so, you might have taken them down the wrong road and they replaced what you told them to.

On the other hand, you paid the dealership to fix the problem - not fix something that wasn't broke.

That's the reason to take the car to the dealership - they have factory trained techs and the tools that the factory recommends.

You may want to talk to the service manager about your problem - hopefully they help you out and take the money you've already spent into consideration. Keep in mind, you'll catch more flies with honey....

My amateur advice - when you're paying someone to fix a problem, tell them the symptoms, but don't ever tell them what you think the problem is - let them diagnose it themselves.

Good luck with it.

 

[stl]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

When I first brought it in I did tell them what code had been found and what that pointed to , but I still got charged with a 120 dollar diagnostic fee, which was a stand alone charge on top of the 200 and something service charge. Which I was less than pleased about. I did not say anything at the time but I thought that was unusual to add a diagnostic fee. when you are already paying for repairs. But hat is another issue. The fact is that I paid 120 dollars to have this diagnosed, and as far as I am concerned they mis diagnosed the problem. The notion that they simply followed the technical service bulliten and then reset the computer really burns me up. Then they have the nerve to tell me that it is most likely a different issue. I am having a hard time catching flies with honey. Thank you for the input.

 

[JCF350]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

P0402 is excessive flow through the EGR valve. Meaning its probably sticking and not closing all the way "OR" the vacuum solenoid might be leaking (if it is vacuum controlled) "OR" an O2 sensor reading a little bit off when the PCM runs it's check on the EGR flow "OR" it could be the MAF reading not quite right (depends on the programming strategy) "OR" this could be an intermittent connection issue "OR" the TSB repair has failed. The dealer is required by the factory to perform the TSB operations first then they can proceed. The return of the DTC may mean something else or it may mean you have the same issue. If it's the same issue you shouldn't have to pay. If it's a different problem you can expect to pay (IMO they ought not charge you for the diagnostic fee again). I wouldn't make a scene until you discussed this with the "service adviser" and the shop manager.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

I agree with jCF above, totally.
I only question the $120 diagnostic fee. At $80/hr that's 1.5 hours to hook up a scanner, get a code, look it up, pull up the TSB from the computer, and decide to do that repair. I understand that most shops have a minumum 1 hour charge, but that's only applicable when the total repair doesn't exceed an hour. In this case, if the diagnosis only took 45 minutes, then that's all you should have been charged for, cause they got flat rate time for the rest of the repair. Just my thoughts.
Don't pay that diagnostic fee again. (BTW, does the dealership also use union mechanics?)

 

[Mike722]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

diagnostic fees usaully include the cost of the tech and the cost of the machine. $120 sounds high to me, but looking just at the per hour cost of labor is not how shops around here pay for the expensive computers and equipment that is required to do it.

 

[Bob_VT]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

The Toyota dealership I am working at charges one hour (minimum) for diagnostics on an average @ $70/hr.

Just becase a code is coming in because of an egr it does not mean that is the fault. They should not charge you again on the same problem and cut you a break..... maybe you old egr was working..... be polite and firm when you go back.

 

[stl]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

The dealership here charges 120 dollars an hour shop time and 120 for a diagnostic. I should have mentioned that the TSB was to remove all lines to the egr and clean out the carbon build up. Which is what they did. I feel like other things should have been checked while they were in there to ensure it would not throw another code 13 days later. So if they go back in and find something other than carbon in the lines, such as the valve stuck, then I will be charged again. It seems reasonable to me that if it is something else and is egr related or related to the 402 code then they should take into consideration the money I have already paid. I talked to the service advisor today and he assured me I will get a fair shake. but I still think that his idea of a fair shake and my idea are two different things. Thanks for all of your input so far it has been very helpful.

 

[stl]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

Last night some one posted on this thread about the idea that maybe they reset the computer and the computer was in "recycle mood" for the time the light was off. This was originally post number 3 in this thread. Somehow that post is gone. Thats kinda strange. I was interested in finding a little more about this recycle mood if anyone knows anything about it.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

Wow, $120/hr is absolutely ridiculous for a mechanical labor rate. The highest around here is $85 and that's pretty bad. For those rates, the next labor better be discounted! Or you need to find an independent shop with more reasonable rates and better skills.

 

[stl]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

Wow, $120/hr is absolutely ridiculous for a mechanical labor rate. The highest around here is $85 and that's pretty bad. For those rates, the next labor better be discounted! Or you need to find an independent shop with more reasonable rates and better skills.

I heard that. I normally get all of my work done by the local guy around the corner. Very reasonable and very honest. My father in law who is a union mechanic talked me into letting the dealer handle this job. He said that if they had to replace the egr that you don't want an aftermarket one. So let the dealer do it. Turns out it didn't need to be replaced. So now I am kinda stuck.

 

[thefairlaneman]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

Last night some one posted on this thread about the idea that maybe they reset the computer and the computer was in "recycle mood" for the time the light was off. This was originally post number 3 in this thread. Somehow that post is gone. Thats kinda strange. I was interested in finding a little more about this recycle mood if anyone knows anything about it.

It may have been me posting about the recycle mood.Without going into alot of detail look at your cars computer for a moment like any other computer. It is pre-programed from the factory with perimeters that each part of the emmission system can operate within. When a malfuntion occurs it detects this and turns on the ' check engine light: When the computer is reset (often by disconnecting the battery with the key on) it automaticaly runs a "self diagnosis" which can take several hours of normal driving to complete. The check engine light is OFF during this time and then will come back on once the system scan is finished if the original problem has not been repaired. You can not have the car pass inspection during the " recycle mood" hope this helps..

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

I heard that. I normally get all of my work done by the local guy around the corner. Very reasonable and very honest. My father in law who is a union mechanic talked me into letting the dealer handle this job. He said that if they had to replace the egr that you don't want an aftermarket one. So let the dealer do it. Turns out it didn't need to be replaced. So now I am kinda stuck.

My father in law is an executive in a national union, so I know where you're coming from. I can say that both unionized companies that my father in law has recommended have been overpriced and the work was no better (in one case worse) than a non union company.
Stop this train right away if you can. I don't ask my FIL for any references anymore when it comes to home repairs.

 

[JCF350]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

Wow, $120/hr is absolutely ridiculous for a mechanical labor rate. The highest around here is $85 and that's pretty bad. For those rates, the next labor better be discounted! Or you need to find an independent shop with more reasonable rates and better skills.

Not uncommon these days. Depends on demographics and the cost of doing business.

Here is a joke from a tech forum I still haunt occasionally
(ESO means evil shop owner, more humor derived from techs that whine about their working conditions)


A man owned a small shop

The State Wage & Hour Department claimed he was not paying
proper wages to his help and sent an agent out to interview
him.

"I need a list of your employees and how much you pay them,"
demanded the agent.

" Well," replied the ESO, "there's my head technician who's
been with me for 3 years. I pay him $500 a week.

The lube tech has been here for 18 months, and I pay her
$350 per week.

Then there's the half-wit who works about 18 hours every day
and does about 90% of all the work around here. He makes
about $10 per week, pays his own room and board, and I buy
him a bottle of bourbon every Saturday night. He also sleeps
with my wife occasionally."

"That's the guy I want to talk to --- the half-wit," says
the agent.

"That would be me," replied the shop owner. !

 

[SuperNova]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

I could reset your CEL and not repair anything. If you don't drive it much the CEL may not come back on for MONTHS. So their excuse about it not coming back on right away is pure B.S.! If they recheck the code (and they should do it in front of you if you don't trust them, which you shouldn't) and it's the same code, they should re-diagnose it for you for no charge. PERIOD. The repair, on the other hand, you may get charged for, but I would fight with them over the necessity of the first repair that you were charged for. That one diagnostic fee should have covered a complete diagnosis of the EGR system and not just stopped when they found the TSB. I work at a new car dealership and if I had worked on this vehicle, I'd be eating the second repair.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

Not uncommon these days. Depends on demographics and the cost of doing business.
!

JCF, I understand demographics, cost of doing business and unionized labor presence in a market. And it gets no worse than it is in Peoria, IL or Bloomington, IL. Plain and simple, $120/hr for mechanical work in St. Louis, MO is absurd. I'll bet the other dealers aren't that high. And if they are, I'd drive the 1.5 hours to Springfield,IL where the rates are $75-80. For $120/hour with 1 hour min diagnostic, they should at least be able to do it right the first time! Or for free the second time.

 

[dolluper]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

Rookie mech shouldn't charge that much pro's don't and fix the problem

 

[stl]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

[ For $120/hour with 1 hour min diagnostic, they should at least be able to do it right the first time! Or for free the second time.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Thats why I took it to dealer in the first place. I knew going in the price would be much higher. But I figured that as highly trained and they are they would get it right the first time. And I would be done with it. Don't think I will ever use the dealer shop again for anything other than scheduled maintenance.

 

[TilliamWe]

Re: Attn. mechanics need advice

I wouldn't even use tham for that!