back to the subject of kicker size

[swimmin' for shore]

Good morning gents, and the occasional lady. Alright. Newest issue. First, the ugly truth. I've decided that I'm very nearly boat stupid. I'm learning, though, doggone it. You've taught me to fiberglass, and I built my own floor. This, from the guy who didn't know the difference between poly and epoxy, and had never heard of pressure-treated ply. <br />So. Next issue. Help me set up my outboard kicker. I know that I could take this subject over to motors, but they aren't my friends yet. You are. <br />The boat: 21' Reinell cuddy cabbin. 1978 type. It weighs in the vicinity of 4500 lbs. if I'm not mistaken. I'm not home right now to check the nameplate data. My new kicker motor will be used in salt water, and will see time as a trolling motor, for salmon fishing. The swells out in the Puget Sound shouldn't run more than 7 or 8 feet, although a few of you could probably be more exact. <br />The questions: What hp will I need to effectively push this? Do I have to have a SS or LS motor? Is it more useful to have helm steering, tiller steering, or both? What is the best way to mount my shiny motor? I've seen some that have been mounted to the outdrive. If that's a good thing to do, I'd like to hear about what is needed. Anything you can provide will be greatly appreciated. In exchange, I'll post pictures when I'm done, and any one of you is more than welcome to come over and have a beer, look at the boat, and even go fishing. Thanks in advance.

 

[JB]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

Ask about engines in the engines fora, SFS.<br /><br />"They" are mostly the same people as here, they are your friends and they know about engines.<br /><br />Moving to Outboard Non-repair.

 

[swimmin' for shore]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

I hate adding to my own posts, but I'm even more confused after a day of study on this. I emailed with a marina, asking for advice on this subject, before I posted this morning. His answer to me was that I wanted the "biggest kicker you can afford". Word for word. In that email, he also said nothing less than 35 hp. <br />The former posts that I researched didn't come anywhere close to this. Anyone?

 

[DJ]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

A "kicker" rule of thumb is:<br /><br />10% of the max. HP rating for the hull.<br /><br />A an exmaple. If the hull is rated for 100 HP-max. An ideal kicker would be a 10 HP.

 

[swimmin' for shore]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

I've been reading that, DJ, and I honestly appreciate your input. Why did the marina guy give me such a different story, though? Is this commonly disagreed over?

 

[Sherman]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

I do a lot of trolling for salmon and agree with DJ on hp but given a chance to choose I would go with a 15 hp with a extra long shaft to help keep the motor as high as possible but not come out of the water when headed into a swell. I would also recommend puting on a remote throttle so you don't have to run back to the engine everytime the wind shifts or you turn back into a swell. I would mount the kicker to a standoff bracket that is spring loaded to lift the kicker completly out of the water (like westmarine 315119 see at westmarine.com) in the verticle position when not in use. Every kicker I have had did not hold up if tipped up while under way at high speed over swells. You have to tie them up with a rope which is a real pain or they break the little sheet metal support arm completely off (I have done this twice). In addition adding a tie bar between the motors is very helpful in steering with only the kicker running.<br />Oh the reason I would go with the 15 hp is I think it will push your boat up to hull speed in displacement mode around 8 knots. Any more will not make the boat go faster unless it is capable of getting the boat onto plane. Hope this is of some help. Sherm

 

[TOHATSU GURU]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

The general rule of thumb is one hp for every 500 lbs. That's a minimum. More may very well be indicated, but a 10 hp on the low side or a 15 hp on the high side are in the right range.

 

[ondarvr]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

I have fished for many years where you will be fishing. Most boats in that size range use a 9.9 or 15. Get a high thrust model If you can find one, but being on a budget you may not be able to. At least a LS, an XL if possible, on a very strong bracket. Put the controls in the cabin where it's warm and dry, the more comfortable you are the more you (and I) will use it.

 

[dajohnson53]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

Originally posted by Sherman:<br /> I do a lot of trolling for salmon and agree with DJ on hp but given a chance to choose I would go with a 15 hp with a extra long shaft to help keep the motor as high as possible but not come out of the water when headed into a swell. I would also recommend puting on a remote throttle so you don't have to run back to the engine everytime the wind shifts or you turn back into a swell. I would mount the kicker to a standoff bracket that is spring loaded to lift the kicker completly out of the water (like westmarine 315119 see at westmarine.com) in the verticle position when not in use. Every kicker I have had did not hold up if tipped up while under way at high speed over swells. You have to tie them up with a rope which is a real pain or they break the little sheet metal support arm completely off (I have done this twice). In addition adding a tie bar between the motors is very helpful in steering with only the kicker running.<br />Oh the reason I would go with the 15 hp is I think it will push your boat up to hull speed in displacement mode around 8 knots. Any more will not make the boat go faster unless it is capable of getting the boat onto plane. Hope this is of some help. Sherm

Just wanted to quote sherm's stuff to agree with his points and to ask Sherm a question:<br /><br />Sherm: is there any down side to the remote throttle/shift? I'm thinking about finding all the parts I need to convert my kicker to remote control (keeping pull start) for the very reason you mention. This is not a trivial task because, while the box and cables are probably available, the connecting kit is NLA and therefore I'll be investing some time and money in finding one. The only things that come to mind are that with my engine I believe I have to remove the tiller handle to make it work and therefore will not have any control back by the engine. <br /><br />But I also want to re-emphasize his points on long shaft, tie-rod for steering, raise-able bracket, hull speed. I've found all of these to be true. <br /><br />To this I'd add: get an oversized kicker bracket. They are generally just better made, and often easier to operate, and not a huge amount more expensive. Also, when considering size, really think about lifting that thing on and off the boat. That's why I agree with the 10 - 15 hp range, and prefer 2 stroke. My 9.8 works well on my 21 foot welded aluminum (approx 3000+ lbs wet, with passengers). Trolls very well and pushes the boat easily at what I'd call hull speed- around 7 or 8 mph. (OK, I'll say 6 knots!).

 

[xako]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

Convenience is important for most. So why not mount the kicker on a trim/tilt device from CMC. www.cook-mfg.com/pt35.html<br />Together with remotecontrol, electric start and seperate steering you will be able to shift between the main motor and the kicker without even have to raise from your seat. <br /><br />-------------------<br />Forsberg.

 

[dajohnson53]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

Just a matter of another $500 give or take, more elecricity, cabling, etc. Sometimes just throwing a light weight 2 stroke on the back is the best and easiest solution.<br /><br />But for a permanent installation for a guy who trolls a lot and has no need to remove the kicker from the boat, I'd consider your suggestion ideal.

 

[swimmin' for shore]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

Hi guys. I love the CMC device, but let's be honest here. I make peanuts for wage. I scrimp and save if I want to keep a rowboat in the water. With the Reinell, I've had to pull every favor I know to get some of the things on it done, and I've learned to do the other stuff in order to do the rest. That's just not going to be in my budget. <br />The suggestions on the kicker, thus far, have been fantastic. I'm changing gears a bit as I look for it, but I have some time right now. I'm about 2 1/2 weeks from being home and needing to get something done anyway, but salmon season is upon us, and something is going to have to be done. <br />Last question now, and I'm kind of mixing this with my other thread, but is my swim platform giong to cause me any problems, as far as being in the way of the kicker? It runs pretty much right across the center of the transom off of the back end, and is made of wood.

 

[dmonwai]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

I fish for salmon all over the Puget Sound and was just out yesterday.<br /><br />I think a 9.9 or a 15 would be good. My dad has a 21' Campion and has a 9.9 for a kicker. <br /><br />We have fished all over Puget Sound, the Strait of Juan de Fuca, 30 miles out of Neah Bay and the West coast of Vancouver Island, Nootka Sound BC. The 9.9 has worked great everywhere.<br /><br />On both my boat and my dads boat, we use a rod to connect the kicker to the main motor so we can steer from the helm and use a Trollmaster throttle control on the kicker to adjust the kicker speed from the helm.

 

[BillP]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

It all depends on your conditions. Are you looking to motor in smooth water and low wind conditions or worse? I had a 9.9 on a Proline cuddy 20' x 3500lb boat and it would only inch forward if the wind and waves picked up. Before that it had a 7.5 and it worked ok in smooth water. Waves will overpower a 9.9 on a 20' 4500lb rig quickly.<br /><br />Regardless, if you are only wanting to troll and not worring about bucking wind and waves to make it back to the marina go with the 9.9. If you need extra punch to make displacement hull speeds in semi rough conditions use a 15. If looking for a motor that will get you home in conditions most sane people will be out in do a 25...if in a hurry do the 35.

 

[gss036]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

Your wooden swim step will cause you some problems. You will need to make or have made a bracket to fit on the swim step and maybe go to the transom. Go down to the harbor and talk w/boaters and look to see what is being used. On a good weekend there will 200-300 boats in & out.<br />I fish out of Everett on ocassion, but mostly out of Bellingham & Blaine. If you are serious about salmon fishing you will need downriggers. If you are going to do winter blackmouth, which is where most of the season is allocated to on the calender, a remote throttle,etc, is not much use because of having to tend to your downriggers. If you are not fishing 4-5 ft(at most 10 ft) from the bottom your chances of catching blackmouth are remote as they hang out on the bottom to feed on sand lance since there is not much in the way of herring any more.<br />A 9.9-15 would do great for your boat and get you home in an emergency.<br />There will be some good silver fishing down your way in late July -August, then you would be ok as you will be fishing 25-40 ft most of the time.

 

[swimmin' for shore]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

You guys are a wonder. All of the Washington people just seem to be coming out of the woodwork. ondarvr has already been over to my house, though not since I picked up the Reinell. Any one of you are more than welcome, anytime, although you might want to wait until I get home from sea. <br />I know about the downriggers. My plan has been for a pair of scotty electric downriggers, and I can get a pair with 24" booms for 180 apiece from the Navy exchange(I'm in the Navy, obviously). If anyone has better suggestions, feel free. I'm a sponge at this point. <br />BillP, in response to your question about conditions, I'd actually have to admit that some of these other guys from my area know this better than I do. The sound isn't bad. There's some occasional wind, but it's fairly tame, in my experience. I'm looking for either a 9.9 or 15 hp. I'd prefer the 15, as I want to be able to get home in an emergency. Either way, I'm afraid that I'll have to go with whichever one is affordable for this year. <br />gss-Like I said to all of you, stop by if you're down. My email address is in my profile. I'd love to go fishing, if you're already headed out. I'm new to salmon and to the Pacific NW, so I have a long way to go-on boats and on fishing. I'm working on the swim ladder issue, and wondering about adjusting it to allow the motor to drop straight down through it. I'm fair with my woodwork, so I can probably manage this. I'll take your advice about going down to look at some, and I can stop by that huge marina(dagmars) along I-5 to see if someone else did something similar in the past. I'll be in a hurry, but we'll get her figured out. <br />Last but not least, ondarvr's already keeping his eyes open. If anyone sees my kicker up for sale in the area in a LS or XLS, please shoot me an email. It'll have to be reasonably priced, even if it's a bit older, but I definitely will be looking to buy one by the end of this month. Thanks to each of you for all of your valuable input, and keep it coming. James

 

[DJ]

Re: back to the subject of kicker size

Regardless of HP, the key is to prop it right. You want POWER, not speed.<br /><br />The "Bigfoot" Mercs are a nice choice. Plus many makers offer a unit that is suited to pushing heavy loads. They have low pitch, high blade area props and gear cases to match.<br /><br />An extra long shaft allows one to keep the powerhead out of the drink-too.<br /><br />The "average" little engine is not inherently suited to push heavy loads. The key is prop selection and shaft length.