Bad Situation in the Gulf.

phwrd

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
294
I was reading about the unfortunate situation in the Gulf last week. And I had a couple of thoughts.

i am going to mark the bottom of my boat before I even think about going out again. I am thinking reflective tape strips, spelled out in "OH S$it Help Me". Seriously, a line down the center & 2 strips crossways.

I have a 20 ft center console deep-v and have promised not to go out of site of land until i finish reading Chapman's and then pass the Admiral's rigid standards. and only on a good day.

Of course, then she wants me to take her to Key West...

As a group, what can we do to further the cause for Mandatory Classes for folks that buy own a boat ? I would like to see Everyone have to take the minimum class before getting registration. There are plenty of law enforcement on the water in Florida, to spot an out of date sticker.

It is sad that these folks went too far, with bad weather coming, anchoring in a storm, just unfortunately without proper instruction.

As a group, there must be something we can do ...
 
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tashasdaddy

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Nov 11, 2005
Messages
51,019
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

i am 100% with you on this. we have to keep telling Tallahassee.
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
16,313
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

Training would help but without the experience and proper equipment you're still looking for trouble. Every vessel venturing out into open water should be required by law to have a functioning DSC radio and a EPIRB on board

In this day and age there is no excuse for not having these two simple life saving devices on board.
 

blckcrk-dog

Recruit
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
4
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

It is a sad situation ,but a lot of states in the coastal areas and with heavy tourism that supports boating and fishing are not going to do this because it will hurt their revenue on taxes and buisness,s because each state would want a different venue on how to apply the licence and profits,however as myself being a licenced captain I think there should be a requirment to at least have some kind of safety course and basic seamanship course to be able to operate a boat in any inland or offshore waters that are patrolled by the MRC or WRC just my 2 cents.
 

chiefalen

Captain
Joined
May 18, 2008
Messages
3,598
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

I'm 55 and i was byatching to no end about NJ now requiring EVERYONE to have a boaters safety course certificate on their person when on the water and behind the wheel.

They gave a test out option where if you were over a certain age one could study and take the test, one time.

If you passed you were issued the certificate. Fail you had to sit thru the course. And then pass the test.

I opted out for the test out option and passed.

But it forced me to go thru the book and re-educate myself.

Learned some things i didn't know and re-learned some things i forgot. Didn't know i forgot them till i read it.

That make sense hope so cause i forgot what i was posting hah.

But really, no boat that on the water should be operated without a person holding the certificate. Rent a boat better have the paper or no boat.

Tragic, things can happen to anyone, anytime.

Look at the 3 baseball pitchers that were on a lake and ran into a dock at night going 100 mph and the only baseball player to live was the driver.
 

ziggy

Admiral
Joined
Jun 30, 2004
Messages
7,473
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

I think there should be a requirment to at least have some kind of safety course and basic seamanship course to be able to operate a boat in any inland or offshore waters that are patrolled by the MRC or WRC just my 2 cents.
i think that's a good idea. but,
Every vessel venturing out into open water should be required by law to have a functioning DSC radio and a EPIRB on board
forceing folks to have a dsc radio or eprib in the name of law i think is going overboard (no pun intended). if you take a safety class, you'll already know those are items that may be necessary if you go out far. it would be more of a revenue item for the dnr than anything, just giving them one more reason to pull you over and give ya the third degree. besides. if you go far out, surely it don't take a rocket scientist to figure out that your all on your own. no one to help you if you make a bad choice. me personally, that's enough for me to do everything i can to make sure i've got my ducks in a row. and that ain't saying that i do have all my ducks in a row everytime either. anyone, or everyone will make a mistake at one point or another..

way to go phwrd on reading the whole book by chapmans. man, that is one serious case of information in that book. i've not read it page by page. but i'd guess i've looked at most all the pages. used it several times while i was in usps taking classes as a referance book.

As a group, there must be something we can do ...
to me, the saying, ya can lead a hosrse to water, but ya can't make'em drink comes to mind.. theres no amount of education, law enforcement or any other means that can make someone not do something stupid....
 

Silvertip

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Sep 22, 2003
Messages
28,771
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

Certificate or not -- you cannot fix "stupid". Everyone operating a motor vehicle is "supposed" to have a drivers license but that doesn't seem to stop bad driving. I watched a young blonde tear out of parking spot at a shopping center yesterday and had I not been watching her she could have hit me. She never looked my direction. She then went through three stop signs on her way to the freeway. Rolling up to a stop sign is one thing -- these were simply a matter of disregarding the signs. While I'm all for a boating safety course it will not stop the bad boater. On the large inland lake I spend a lot of time on, a young (and drunk) boat load of folks managed to put their runabout on top of a pontoon. Total of 11 or so people seriously injured. We like to refer to incidents like these as accidents but they are very classic examples of flawed judgement.
 

Wee Hooker

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
618
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

"

Certificate or not -- you cannot fix "stupid"."


Agreed! Education and training arn't a bad thing but we all have to take personal responsability at some point.
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
16,313
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

i think that's a good idea. but, forceing folks to have a dsc radio or eprib in the name of law i think is going overboard (no pun intended). if you take a safety class, you'll already know those are items that may be necessary if you go out far.

Using the same logic I find it interesting that they mandate PDF and Visual devices being onboard. Had these gentlemen had an EPIRB on board we wouldn?t be talking about it.

Another case. We had six guys go down here in rough seas a month ago within sight of land. Only four survived but had they not been able to get off a DSC call before the boat rolled none of six men would have survived.

So here we are, two accidents, both in which a DSC radio or an EPRIB could have or did save lives.

While a book education is a start, the bigger problem is with the ?it will not happen to me? mentality. As you said, you could lead them to water but you can't make them drink.
 

lowkee

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
1,890
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

what can we do to further the cause for Mandatory Classes for folks that buy own a boat

I will be on the other side of the street picketting to keep laws like this off the books. Knee-jerk reactions like this are why cars cost so bloody much, nobody but a licensed contractor can build a dog house and soon, why boating will be so expensive nobody but the wealthy will afford it.

I once slipped and fell in my boat.. skinning my knee. These things should have airbags! A boat once sunk after a back yard boat owner rebuilt it.. you should be licensed to work on your own boat! Go ahead, push for your new laws. 20 years from now you'll be that person complaining how the cost of boating used to be so reasonable, wondering what drove prices up so much. Worse, you'll be the person who caused it.

The only reason those idiots got any press is because they are/were pro football players. Frankly, they should have all died, bunch of morons ignoring a storm advisory. Veering off course a bit, maybe we should make it mandetory all NFL players should drown off the coast, that way I won't be required, through taxes, to fund the next stadium in my town, even though I'll never step foot in it and don't even want it here.
 

luv2b0at

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
176
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

These guys weren't new to boating. It's not like they just bought the boat tha.t morning. They had been out in it several times. They had access to the same information we all do and chose to ignore it. Darwin's Law.
 

cwhite6

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
348
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

I am still amazed they where out that far in a boat that size. I would never venture that far out unless I was in a dang big boat. But, that is me. I can swim pretty good, but not thirty miles worth. Here in Louisiana, boating education is required if born after 1985 I think. I do not have a problem with it as they teach it in school to the kids like they taught hunter's ed to me when I was in.
 

mphy98

Lieutenant
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
1,422
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

I was on the bandwagon for the locater and radio law too. Until I read lowkee. He is right, we cannot allow ourselves loss of freedom in the name of saving a few. Laws do not protect you from yourself, common sense should. We have far to many laws on the books now that make criminals of us every day and we do not even know we have broken a law. Drop a thermometer in a hospital and do not call the hazmat team and evacuate the floor of that wing and go to jail for 5 years here. That is just stupid. So I agree that you cannot fix stupid, and you should not punish 99% for 1%. It should be up to the individual to have the correct equipment and they should require a boaters safety course just like drivers ed, but then it should be up to the individual. It is a tragedy what happened to those guys BUT, do you think it would have been national news if they weren't NFL players? I think not. It would have been just another local boater missing. Not to slight the family's for there loss. We can still pray for there souls and comfort.
 

Mark42

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Oct 8, 2003
Messages
9,334
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

Regarding the EPIRB's, they are very expensive for the average boater to justify buying one. Upwards around 700-900 for a good model.

But, if the CG would give a 90% rebate on every purchase, they would become affordable. Then if the Coast Guard has to go find and save your ***, if you have a EPIRB, the cost of the operation is waived. If you don't have an EPIRB, you are billed for the cost of the rescue mission. :D


But seriously, it would be nice if the bait shops, marina, etc would start to rent them out on a day/trip basis. I would be willing to drop $50 for a day rental when I know I'm going to be outside of regular marine radio contact.
 

KurtG

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
323
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

I think boatus rents the EPIRBs for $40 per week through the foundation plus the shipping charges. If you are out enough that it gets expensive, you might need to buy one anyways.
 

Woodnaut

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
634
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

There's no substitute for good judgement.

I go 30 miles offshore in my boat which is relatively small, but I pick my days carefully, painstakingly maintain my boat and engine, and carry two PLBs with me. (PLBs are similar to EPIRBs but they can attach to your life jacket. Mine have a built in GPS function). Were the PLBs expensive? At $650 a piece you bet they were. Will they stop an unexpected squall from forming? No. Will they keep me from striking a partially submerged object and tearing a hole in my hull? No. Would they have helped these poor guys. You bet.

I'm definitely in favor boater education, but as Silvertip has already hinted, "stupid is as stupid does". Education can't fix stupid, but it can fix ignorance.
 

dingbat

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Nov 20, 2001
Messages
16,313
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

You can purchase a EPIRB for right around $400.

I keep two onboard my boat. My life is worth more to my wife, kids, and the grandkids than the cost of the two EPIRBs.
 

chiefalen

Captain
Joined
May 18, 2008
Messages
3,598
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

Lowkee that was harsh. Bashing these guys, man whew.

Pointing out what could have changed the outcome is what i wish to express.

So many things listed. If one item would have been different, and not unfold they way it had, these guys would still be with us, and there would be no news story.

We as intelligent adult's must be left to make our own decisions, with regards to our own actions.

However it is not unreasonable to require some knowledge, as a boat safety course, before being allowed to operating a motor boat on the water ?

As to regards to safety equipment mandated on boats, we have laws now in effect, how many boats if they all were stopped and checked, have the required equipment ??
 

jay_merrill

Vice Admiral
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
5,653
Re: Bad Situation in the Gulf.

I'll offer a few thoughts from the persepective of someone who flew search and rescue missions, as an active duty Coast Guard Aircrewman many years ago, and as someone who occassionally does SARs on a volunteer basis.

As to the matter of required equipment, my take on it is that the best way for us not to have laws put in place, is not to do stupid things. Obviously this is a very oversimplified statement, but its still true. When things like this happen, especially when famous people are involved, legislators decide to burn up some ink writing laws.

A part of me wishes that legislators were forced to work only part time, because doing so would limit the amount of time that they could spend dreaming up new laws. But there is more to it - laws often get passed because of the cost of irresponsible behavior. Consider that, during the peak of this search effort, there were several Coast Guard ships and boats, three CG C130 aircraft, several CG helicopters, an Air Force C130 and several Air Force helicopters involved, I would not be in the least bit surprised at a "price tag" of several million dollars for the mission. While I don't mean to make light of the pain that families and friends are feeling right now, that cost occurred because some folks made a very bad decision in regard to catching a few fish.

As I have said in other threads, people who conduct searches are glad to do so most of the time. We realize that generally prudent people sometimes get into situations that they probably could not have predicted. We classify such a scenario as "stuff happens." On the other hand, we also see many situations that are very much a direct result of ignoring the obvious. This case was one of the latter category. Going 30 - 50 miles out to sea alone in a small, single engine boat is just dumb, period. Even in good weather its dumb, because all it takes is an engine problem and you are stranded with no way to get help. Worse yet, to do such a thing when bad weather is predicted, and to then ignore rising seas and stay out until just before nightfall, is absolutely begging for something bad to happen.

On the issue of DSC radios, EPRIBS and PLBs, yes they are expensive. I don't own one for that reason, but I also don't run my boat offshore. I'm not particularly in favor of more laws requiring them, either. That said, price of a product is often a function of unit cost and the more of these items produced and sold, the less expensive they will become. I also like Mark42's idea about subsidizing purchase of such devices. While we sure don't need to have government paying for more stuff right now, I think such a program would actually pay for itself many times over. All it would take is a bunch of searches like this to never happen.

Even given the current cost of communication and locating devices, if a person is going to opreate a boat in open sea, having a way for rescue agencies to pinpoint location, usually makes a huge difference in the ability to find them. During the course of our other thread on this subject, I held back on comment about how hard it is to find a small boat or a person in the water. I did so because the technology has changed so much since I was flying SARs and I didn't want to inadvertantly give bad information. In particular, we were just beginning to test infrared/thermal devices, while they are now used routinely. As I read the news pieces, however, it seems like those tools didn't make much difference here.

What I can tell everyone about conducting a visual search from either an aircraft or a boat, is that it is very difficult to do - especially in regard to an individual in the water. Simply put, its darn near a stroke of luck when you spot something that actually turns out to be what you are looking for. This is so, because you constantly see bits of light reflected off of waves, dark spots in the water when a wave crest forms a shadow, debris and even large fish that sometimes look like a body from the air. As you scan, you become almost overloaded with "mini decisions," as to just what it is that you are seeing at any given moment. In sort of a "micro way," you also agonize over every one of those decisions, because they can become wasted time if you react to each of them, but could also cost a life if you ignore the wrong one.

What I hope that I am pointing out, is that every little thing that a boater can do to make it easier for people to find him/her/them, can be tremendously important. In this case, for example, we have a guy who owned a boat that was probably worth $50,000 or more, yet there were no locating devices aboard. That is such a shame, because if there had been such devices, all four fishermen would probably be alive and we wouldn't be having as much of a discussion on this.

Boating is a great hobby and I don't think any of us want to see it regulated "to death," but we really are more in control of that outcome than we think. All we have to do is to become spokespersons among our peers to encourage better decision making and acceptance of responsibility.
 
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