Basic Seamanship

[JCasey]

Re: Basic Seamanship

Hey neumanns, no hard feelings of being unsympathetic, I wanted the truth. I did not mean to sound like I was pleading my case, although I will say that we headed back to the ramp (I trailer) and the way to the ramp took us by the marina. So we had little choice. Also we there was 30% chance of rain that day and one thing that I have learned in the time since moved to Fl is that thunderstorms move in very quickly. We headed in at the first sign of the storm. <br /><br />The only point that I had a problem with are the comments that I did this because we did not want to get wet?? Hello... we are on a boat. If it did not rain we probably would have gone for a quick dip. <br /><br />Sorry about the ice. <br /><br />Thank you all, again.

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: Basic Seamanship

For what it's worth, if I was familiar with the area, no other boats were around and it was lightning, the heck with the ticket. It would be hammer down time for me. Nothing is more important than mine and my families life. Of course, going into a situation you are unfamiliar with can be worse than the lightning.

 

[Boatist]

Re: Basic Seamanship

JCasey<br />It may have seemed like the right thing at the time but if you were in the normal 5 mph / no wake zone of the marina and you were really worried you should have idled up to the guest dock and went in and had a soda or beer until the storm passed. The law is to stop you from making big wakes and damanging boat at the marina. It is also to allow people at the dock to board their boats safely. If your boat was docked their I think you would agree.<br /><br />It sounds like you are a stand up guy and want to do the right thing.<br /><br />Good post

 

[BillP]

Re: Basic Seamanship

Do they have signs posted saying "5 mph"? If not, are the marine speed laws on the local books? Did you damage any property? Did the marine patrol measure your speed with a radar gun or device other than just observing? <br /><br />Disclaimer: This is not legal advice. <br /><br />If none of the above I'd ask the judge to give you a break. You could also speak with the local State's Attorney beforehand and they may help get it resolved without court. First thing I'd do though is enroll in a USCG safe boating course to show them you are serious about doing the right thing. You need the course anyway and most insurance companies will give a discount for taking it.<br /><br />If signs were present and you want to play lawyer, check your state laws for spacing and placement of signs, etc. If they aren't placed correctly (*** feet apart, correct size, height, etc.)it is a technical issue you may fight. You are liable for wake damage whether signs are present or not though.<br /> <br />BillP

 

[dlmenius]

Re: Basic Seamanship

If it was raining hard enough that you felt obligated to "hurry up" then it was raining hard enough that your visability was nil. My skin crawls when I think about a novice boat owner in unfamiliar waters in a hurry. The captain is in charge of the boat, not the weather. A bad decision about the former does not override a bad decision about the later. Don't take pregnant women out when bad weather is possible. Stay close to the dock, or a bridge, or a marina. That brings up a point. Why didn't you just stop at the marina and buy the poor girl a coffee? She had to pee anyway, she's pregant! Don't come to Wrightsville Beach until you get all of these issues sorted out. The ticket you'll get will pale in comparison to the heckling at the dock. <br /><br />Sorry to be so rude, but most of us started with the boat we could manage, not the boat our Escalade could manage.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Basic Seamanship

I think this answers your question as to your obligations. Out of the USCG web site:<br /><br />Rendering Assistance<br /><br />The master of a vessel is obligated by law to provide assistance to any person in danger at sea. The master is subject to a fine and/or imprisonment for failure to do so. Many boaters refer to this great tradition as "The Law of the Sea."<br /><br />In U.S. waters, the Federal Boating Safety Act of 1971 contains a "Good Samaritan" provision that states:<br /><br />"Any person...who gratuitously and in good faith renders assistance at the scene of a vessel collision, accident, or other casualty without objection of any person assisted, shall not be held liable for any act or omission in providing or arranging salvage, towage, medical treatment, or other assistance where the assisting person acts as a ordinary, reasonable prudent man would have acted under the same or similar circumstances."<br /><br />FYI

 

[Drowned Rat]

Re: Basic Seamanship

JCasey, Just my 2 cents, but if you can explain to a judge that you thought you or your passengers were in danger from the lightning storm, high winds, heavy seas, or other dangerous unexpected weather, you would be protected from prosecution under a law known as "Force Majeure". If you were just trying to get back to the dock because you were cold and wet then no dice. Otherwise, I would fight it!

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Basic Seamanship

Pointer94 – I remember reading the full text of ‘The Law Of The Sea’. There is also something in there about 'the master' not endangering any person on the rescuing vessels or the rescuing vessel itself. I don’t remember the exact wording…I just remember it as being common sense.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Basic Seamanship

You are liable for wake damage whether signs are present or not though.

I disagree. I would argue you may be liable for wake damage only if in an area where wakes or waves are not reasonably expected. Any person exposing objects in an area where wakes are expect has an obligation to protect their property against those wakes, regardless of any regulator attempt to manage those wakes. Where there are boats, there are wakes and you are responsible to protect your own property from them.<br /><br />Further, you would have to prove the damage was caused by my boat’s wake, specifically, and not caused by a previous wake or an accumulation of exposure to repetitive wakes.<br /><br />

...enroll in a USCG safe boating course...

Really good idea! My understanding is the USCG is going to discontinue this course, if they haven’t already. A similar boating course, also recognized by insurance carriers, is available for free thru the U.S. Power Squadrons. The USPS also has advanced courses in navigation, piloting, just about anything you would need to know to safely pilot your vessel just about anywhere.<br /><br />www.usps.org<br /><br />You know the U.S. Postal Service wishes they had registered that domain name first.

 

[Capn Mike]

Re: Basic Seamanship

18Rabbit, sorry, but you're wrong on both counts. One of the Coast Guard Auxliary's main missions is public education. There are 3 boating safety courses offered by the various flotillas. Click on http://www.cgaux.org/cgauxweb/public/pubframe.htm to find the course in your area (I'm our flotilla's public education officer, and I'm starting a class tomorrow at the Port of Camas-Washougal, if you want to fly up).<br /><br />Secondly, I assure you are responsible for your wake, regardless of whether or not there are signs. Several "Big-Boats-No-Brains" dudes learned this lesson the hard way last summer when they were caught cruising too close to a Columbia River marina at full throttle and damaged several boats (why do Carvers have bigger wakes than most?). One owner attempted to fight the case in court: after he lost and had to pay damages as well as court costs, the others couldn't pay fast enough. Yes, fault had to be proved, but it's easier (at least on the Columbia River) than one might think.<br />In another incident, a commercial pilot had his license suspended for not slowing a large passenger catamaran notorious for its large wake. The Coast Guard held that since he (and everyone else on the rivers) knows that this vessel throws a large wake, he has a greater duty than most to watch for moored (objects) that could be damaged by his wake.

 

[POINTER94]

Re: Basic Seamanship

We should have a couple of these basic seamanship questions every week. I know I am benefiting from this discussion.

 

[Maximerc]

Re: Basic Seamanship

Late last summer we went out and a storm came up , I could hardly see, it started to pelt hail. As I had no top I decieded to make a run for it. soon after getting up on plane , a water skier appeared !!! now while I missed him by 40 feet or more, I now like to be able to see where I am going. While I felt a bit wrong for picking up speed with low visablity .. I cannot imagin why he and the boat driver were out there !!

 

[Drowned Rat]

Re: Basic Seamanship

I guess the problem here is that if you were truely in danger from the storm you should have gone straight to the closest safe mooring, not just to the most convenient place. Being forced to get off the water quickly because of a dangerous storm is an acceptable excuse for exceeding the "speed limit, wake limit", however trying to bypass this first "safe mooring" could constitute negligence on your part. Regardless of the circumstances you will always be responsible for property damaged by your boat wake. Someone has to be at fault and that person will never be the one who had his boat safely moored.

 

[JCasey]

Re: Basic Seamanship

Thank you all again for your great feedback. To clarify a couple of points, I did not go into the marina and the main issue that the Sherif had was that I was in a min/no wake zone leaving a wake. The min/no wake zone being created to slow larger boats down prior to going by the marina which is on the SIDE of the channel that I was in. With the exception of 20mph limit in some places in the ICW, we generally do not have mph restrictions we have wake restrictions. Law enforcement usually decides if you are planning or not and then goes from there as to whether your boat was leaving too big of a wake. Also, the ramp that we needed to go was near the marina and had I saw the marina before the sheriff ordered me to dock with him I would have surely gone there until the storm stopped. Nothing worse than trying to pull a boat in the rain. This portion of the lake (Ockeechobee) has a channel which boats 50+ travel through, most of the way without any wake restrictions and there is no threat of water skiers here, they are liable to get attacked by alligators so they stay in the ICW. <br /><br />I have been boating for over 3 years now and I am a very responsible boater and I have taken a safety course which is why what stuck in my mind was that my responsibility was to my passengers. While I am amply aware that I am liable for ANY damage created by my wake I also know that I would much rather pay for some damages to another boaters boat, than for a funereal. While most thought I was wrong, I was very happy to hear the debate as this shows that this is not a such a simple question, even by the "Non-Novice" boaters or those who "started with the boat they could manage, not the boat their Escalade could manage." I owned up to my mistake and send the check went out today and I and my F250 will be towing my boat out to the ICW this weekend.<br /><br />Thank you all again for your great input.

 

[rickdb1boat]

Re: Basic Seamanship

I can't believe that if you were out in a storm with lightning cracking down, you wouldn't do whatever to get the heck off the water ASAP.

 

[BillP]

Re: Basic Seamanship

Originally posted by 18rabbit:<br />

You are liable for wake damage whether signs are present or not though.

I disagree. I would argue you may be liable for wake damage only if in an area where wakes or waves are not reasonably expected. Any person exposing objects in an area where wakes are expect has an obligation to protect their property against those wakes, regardless of any regulator attempt to manage those wakes. Where there are boats, there are wakes and you are responsible to protect your own property from them.<br /><br />Further, you would have to prove the damage was caused by my boat’s wake, specifically, and not caused by a previous wake or an accumulation of exposure to repetitive wakes.<br /><br />

...enroll in a USCG safe boating course...

Really good idea! My understanding is the USCG is going to discontinue this course, if they haven’t already. A similar boating course, also recognized by insurance carriers, is available for free thru the U.S. Power Squadrons. The USPS also has advanced courses in navigation, piloting, just about anything you would need to know to safely pilot your vessel just about anywhere.<br /><br />www.usps.org<br /><br />You know the U.S. Postal Service wishes they had registered that domain name first.

18rabbit,<br /><br />In Florida, the boat owner is liable for wake damage and no excuses are allowed. The property owner is responsible for acts of nature type damage, not boat wake damage. But if you look along the waterway most property owners build their docks and boatlifts to prevent damage from big wakes anyway. <br /><br />If I was trying to beat this (you know, like OJ did)in court I'd say my 17' outboard boat wake was no worse than what mother nature provides. <br /><br />BillP

 

[neumanns]

Re: Basic Seamanship

JCasey...In all fairness you were the only one out there, the rest of us are only monday morning quarterbacks.<br /><br />I believe these dicussions benifit us all, It will help us to see more sides than just our own should we find ourselves in a simulair situation.<br /><br />Sometimes ya just gotta call them as you see them!<br /><br />Don't let these guys get you down, I'm sure they have all infringed on the no wake rule to some degree at one time or another...I know I have. It's just you got caught.

 

[18rabbit]

Re: Basic Seamanship

One of the Coast Guard Auxliary's main missions is public education.

I’m glad to hear it isn’t discontinued. I have never been to any of the courses but I have heard only good things about it (them?). I met a lawyer in a sushi bar on Alameda that is in the USCG’s legal department, stationed locally, that had opined the discontinuance of the CG boater safety classes. I should have known…she was an attorney. <br /><br />Fwiw, I had also heard the voluntary CG boat safety inspection program was coming to the end of its time, too. Do you know if there is any truth to that?<br /><br />

In Florida, the boat owner is liable for wake damage and no excuses are allowed.

What I am thinking is possible damages more in line with Jcasey’s 23-ft open bowrider than Capn Mike’s Big-Boats-No-Brains. I would think the big boats would have less of a defense. I don’t know exactly what the laws are regarding boat wakes in California. It has never been an issue with me; it just seems like common sense. I would not be surprised to know there are similar laws here as well. Now you got me wondering…<br /><br />A guy (not a lawyer! ) that teaches boater safety classes at the Power Squadron told me a few years ago we had a couple sailboats in the SF Bay get hit with big fines (several thousand dollars each) for not yielding the right-of-way. As he tells it, the sailboats were of the mind they had the right-of-way because they did not have mechanical power engaged. A tug pulling a barge called it in to the CG after the near misses.

 

[Boatist]

Re: Basic Seamanship

I do not know anything about Florida Law but here in California It does not matter if they have signs or not. Within 200 feet of any marina, dock with boat or people on them, Launch ramp, or beach with swimmers the speed limit is 5MPH/no wake. While we all mostly think of boat damage from wakes and that is bad enough, wake could also cause someone to fall over board and drown, slip and fall and be injured, or trying to hold the boat from hitting the dock get a arm or leg trapped between the boat and the dock. I hate all the 5 MPH limit especialy when traveling up stream against a strong current. I could support a rule that all new Marina's must build a sea wall or put the marina off the main channel. Of course that woud mean higher slip fees but I think worth it.<br /><br />US Coast Guard does not give boating saftey classes. The USCG Auxiliary however does. My entire family has taken the "Basic Skills and Seamanship" class and every Captain and CREW should. Some day the Captain may have a heart attact or be injured and the crew would have to summond help to their location or bring the boat in form Sea. Should some one fall overboard out to Sea you need a crew of three who all know what to do. Captain assign one person to watch the person in the water and to never take their eye off that person. Another person throws a Life ring to the person in the water and if possible a throw line as well. Then this person pull all the gear to get ready for recovery. Captain sets a man overboard waypoint and turn the vessel back, check wind and sea conditions so can make a safe approach to the person without the wind or sea pushing the boat over the person. If possible also notify the Coast Guard especialy in very cold water or heavy seas.<br /><br />Every crew menber should know the rules of the road, who has the right away, what the sound signals mean, what a Red or Green buoy means, ect. <br />The US Power Squardons also has a very good class as well. I have taken both classes 3 times and may soon take more. The US Coast Guard Auxiliary class is still going strong as of 3 weeks ago at the San Francisco Sports an Boat show. In fact for the first time You can take the advanced classes. Before you could only take the advanced classes if your joined the USCG Auxiliary. The classes both USPS and USCG Aux are not totaly free. While the instruction it self is free You must buy the Instruction manual. If a family takes the class you only have to buy one instruction manual but each member need to buy the home work workbook. The cost has been minor. I was suprised at the San Francisco boat show the USCG Auxiliary said there next class was $85. I ask why so much and he said they had to rent a class room. All the class I have taken before have been in a school, Marina, Power company or Park facillity and there was no charge for the class room. The USCG Auxiliary Basic skill and Seamanship class has a long version (13 weeks) and a short version 6 to 9 weeks. Take the longer class. Only reason they offered the shorter class was many take the class only to get the insurance break some company offer. Per USCG AUX had trouble getting people to sign up for the longer class but the 13 week class is much better.<br /><br />US Power Squardrons also offer more than one class. The longer class cost a little more unless you have some navigation tools you can bring to class. To get thru the navigation part you will need at least divider, Parallel rules, a protractor and compass rose. Class kit very good price for basic navigation plotting tools.<br /><br />Sorry for the long post but something I feel strongly about. Too many here in the land of Fruits and Nuts feel a boat is just to load up with beer and go as fast as you can close to shore to show off to the Chicks.<br /><br />Twice I have had to put my Crew and Vessel at risk to resque a non thinking boater to save their life. One time within 5 feet of saying risk too great to my crew. If the man sitting on the bow of his boat holding a beer had missed our throw line we would have aborted as we were allready in the edge of the breakers and had notified the coast guard.

 

[Capn Mike]

Re: Basic Seamanship

Good post Boatist. We appreciate your appreciation! Yes, the Aux. guy you talked to was right: we have to pass the cost of our meeting place onto the cost of the class. Sometimes we just can't find a free location. We enjoy giving the 13-chapter course most, but honestly, it's getting harder and harder to find people who want to invest the time.<br />You brought up another subject that's been covered in detail, but basically, a boater is required to assist someone in danger, unless "doing so would put your own crew and boat at risk." <br /><br />18rabbit, both the Power Squadron and the CG Aux do boat inspections; you'll get the same check list and compliance sticker from either.<br /><br />Sailboaters need to take the same classes, it would appear. The order goes like this: power boats (including sail boats under power) must give way to sail boats (under sail), must give way to commercial fishing boats engaged in fishing, must give way to any boat restricted in its ability to maneuver (such as ocean-going and/or commercial boats in a channel, tow/tug boats with barges, dredges), and all must give way to any boat not under command, such as a disabled or anchored boat (and you can't anchor in the channel). And the correct term is "Give Way" not "Right of Way."<br />There are more, but yeah, sometimes blow-boaters think they have the "Right of Way" over all others. They don't.