Bellows Adhesive Debate

[StevNimrod]

Re: Bellows Adhesive Debate

would simply using the correct service manual and the correct part number adhesive when called for, using the correct manual procedure, simply be to hard ?

x3. Usually.

If it weren't for the service manuals, and reading some posts around here, I'd still be out there messing with it.

Since it was my first bellows job and they do keep water out of my boat, I figured it'd be better to ask a simple question that start a "If I installed my bellows differently do you think my boat would have not sunk" thread.

I was just asking out of curiosity. I gather from your post count, and general demeanor, that you've been doing this for quite a bit (as a complement, you know how you guys are). I haven't.

So it's taken me a bit of time to learn that getting the right guy at Napa is the functional equivalent of driving all over Ohio to get the "correct" Merc part for some things; that a 1/4" bolt, some washers and a nut is a great improvised tool for removing and installing a lower shift shaft bushing, etc. Most of which you don't find in the service manual.

Point being, the manuals are great, but there is little substitute for experience. That experience is what I was looking for. I know, from practice, that books are helpful but only to a point.

As my mechanic told me (when I was trying to adjust the remote throttle after a new shift cable), "you can stare at that book for 3 hours and still not know what the f*** you're doing." I took that as him telling me to step aside, and five minutes later he was done. Some things, and admittedly bellows adhesive may not be one, are best learned with the help of someone who's done it before.

 

[Apollo75]

Re: Bellows Adhesive Debate

would simply using the correct service manual and the correct part number adhesive when called for, using the correct manual procedure, simply be to hard ?

This is not the best answer

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StevNimrod

"x3. Usually.

If it weren't for the service manuals, and reading some posts around here, I'd still be out there messing with it.

Since it was my first bellows job and they do keep water out of my boat, I figured it'd be better to ask a simple question that start a "If I installed my bellows differently do you think my boat would have not sunk" thread."

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Yes, keep asking --- adhesive formulas may have changed, many service bulletins may have been issued, some grease may be no longer used on certain parts because of teflon, may have to tap something and install it from a different direction, and I seriously doubt the manuals have been updated to reflect all the changes.

Have fun

OFM

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Bellows Adhesive Debate

what I am getting at is models change, marinizers change and the only way to do what is correct for the particular model your working on is follow the factory manual for THAT model.
kinda like some of the 5.7 MPI motors.
some marinizers say use of synthetic oils will void the warrenty some say using dino oils void the warrenty and the ONLY difference in the mechanical part of the engine is paint color.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Bellows Adhesive Debate

what I am getting at is models change, marinizers change and the only way to do what is correct for the particular model your working on is follow the factory manual for THAT model.
kinda like some of the 5.7 MPI motors.
some marinizers say use of synthetic oils will void the warrenty some say using dino oils void the warrenty and the ONLY difference in the mechanical part of the engine is paint color.

I'm with that. And hopefully you didn't just open the door to yet another oil debate.

I will admit that my the manuals have saved me a lot of time on *some* repairs, but there are quite a few things where the manuals are vague, to say the least.

 

[Apollo75]

Re: Bellows Adhesive Debate

would simply using the correct service manual and the correct part number adhesive when called for, using the correct manual procedure, simply be to hard ?

The answer is step one --- it is not wrong

People have questions --- if everything is the same as the manual and a marine mechanic says you can follow the procedure "and" they know there are no service bulletins for the procedure, "and" they know the adhesive is exactly the same and does not need to set up for a longer time etc., then it is the best answer.

We depend on the marine mechanics or people that know the procedure to direct us. The marine mechanics may have a short cut, better procedure, or additional advice they have learned over the years that works better --- I personally want a lot of experienced opinions.

OFM

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Bellows Adhesive Debate

case in point, WT manual 3850075 states to use VP or OMC gasket sealing compound, this is a non harding compound and NOT an adhesive.
the DPE-SPE volvo manual7797525 makes NO mention of using ANY kind of sealent on any bellows.
yet both use the same rubber with a ridge and the same design hose clamp assy.
go figgure.
I simply follow the manual and use the adhesives or sealents required and go from there.
keeps me always on the plaintifs side of the courtroom and not on the defense side cause if you do what the FACTORY manual says with the correct stuff it tends to work correctly the first time.

 

[Don S]

Re: Bellows Adhesive Debate

Posted by Apollo75
We depend on the marine mechanics or people that know the procedure to direct us. The marine mechanics may have a short cut, better procedure, or additional advice they have learned over the years that works better --- I personally want a lot of experienced opinions.

LOL, Doesn't everyone ........ what is your marine training? You seem to give a lot of advise, why should anyone listen to you?? Nothing in your profile to lead me to believe you are a professional marine tech.

 

[Apollo75]

Re: Bellows Adhesive Debate

I guess it boils down to ---> can I or anyone else have an opinion on this forum
?

OFM

 

[Don S]

Re: Bellows Adhesive Debate

Never mind, not worth the effort.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Bellows Adhesive Debate

I guess it boils down to ---> can I or anyone else have an opinion on this forum
?

OFM

Never mind, not worth the effort.

Ok...I am going to make the effort here.

The problem is when an opinion is posted that is NOT based on facts or personal knowledge. Too many times I see opinions posted that have no reality behind them at all. For a non experienced person posting here with a problem, he has to wade through all the BS advice for a real honest to good answer which can be tedious. What's worse, a poster could take this "opinion" based on zero facts at all and have a real problem on his hands.

 

[captmello]

Re: Bellows Adhesive Debate

Ok...I am going to make the effort here.

The problem is when an opinion is posted that is NOT based on facts or personal knowledge. Too many times I see opinions posted that have no reality behind them at all. For a non experienced person posting here with a problem, he has to wade through all the BS advice for a real honest to good answer which can be tedious. What's worse, a poster could take this "opinion" based on zero facts at all and have a real problem on his hands.

Well put.

I use Permatex #3 aviation gasket sealent on my VP ujoint bellows because It seemed like a good idea. I don't know what the book says.

I've been posting here for a while and have seen bad advise come through many times, perhaps from my own keyboard. The funny thing is that its all well intended. But that doesn't make it alright.

 

[StevNimrod]

Re: Bellows Adhesive Debate

For a non experienced person posting here with a problem, he has to wade through all the BS advice for a real honest to good answer which can be tedious. What's worse, a poster could take this "opinion" based on zero facts at all and have a real problem on his hands.

Amen to that.

I estimate that some questions are probably about annoying to you guys as they are overwhelming to a newbie. I don't know where each of you boat, but however small Lake Erie is, it can turn real ugly real quick and I've been on the losing end of that battle a few times. And being 13 miles in open water fishing is NOT the time you want to find out that Uncle Joe's shortcut works for him because he knows he can always swim to shore. That said, it's an individual's responsibility to choose which advise he will follow. The problem, at least with what I was working on here, was getting dissimilar information from similarly credentialed sources.

Sometimes to us with limited hours, it's not always about how/what as it is about WHY. And sometimes, at least for me, it seems that the manual assumes a certain amount of prerequisite knowledge. That, of course, I don't have. That's where you guys come in.

I enjoy reading the opinions, sometimes leading to disputes, but at the end of the day I appreciate the information and trust myself to at least be able to sort out the stuff I really don't want to experiment with. At least not on my boat

 

[natemoore]

Re: Bellows Adhesive Debate

I've been remodeling kitchens for almost 15 years, and I've built a few Formica countertops in that time using contact (rubber) adhesive. You apply the glue to both surfaces (substrate and laminate), let dry until it won't stick to your fingers, then press both together.

Once the two surfaces are stuck, they cannot be moved. If you screw up with the placement of the laminate, you have to basically scrap the countertop and start over, or pull the laminate away from the substrate by pouring lacquer thinner in between the two and slowly pulling them apart.

Here's my point: you're already struggling to slide the bellows onto a the bell housing or gimbal housing. Why try to totally screw yourself by putting a big, sticky obstacle in your way? Using the bellows adhesive wet makes the most sense to me. It lubes the rubber and makes the process easier.

From the instructions on my Quicksilver bellows adhesive box: Bond while adhesive is still wet or aggressively tacky.

Why no bellows adhesive on a radiator hose? Same rubber/metal/hose clamp scenerio. Further, the radiator is holding back pressurized coolant.

I think that Mercruiser figured that your average mechanic would get so frustrated trying to reach the frickin' hose clamps up inside the bell housing that they'd say "screw it." So the adhesive is need to hold the crap together. What do you bet that there is not a single mechanic on their engineering design staff?