Bilge Pump wiring/switch

--GQ--

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516
Re: Bilge Pump wiring/switch

Let see if we can find any truth behind the madness. A blower by any name is a motor with variable speed controlled by two of the common typea . A rheostat or variable resistor adjust the power going to the motor thus increasing or decreasing rotation speed as desired. <br /><br />1) For the fact that a rheostat or variable resistor is used, we can conclude the switching is done on the positive side. Such devices are not designed for use on the negative line.<br /><br />2) If the switching is done on the negative side, the following observations can be made. At any moment as long as the battery is good and connected to the appropriate leads the blower motor is "hot" on the positive lead of the motor regardless what position the ignition key or the control switch is in. By this logic, the key is not used in the switching on the motor in-conjunction to the variable speed control switch . So the following must be true.<br /><br />With the ignition key in the off position the blower should run when ever the variable speed control switch is activated. <br /><br />With the ignition key and the variable speed switch in the off position, there will be voltage between the positive lead of the blower motor and to any grounded parts of the car.<br /><br />With the ignition key on (second position in most cars) there should be no voltage on either side of the variable speed switch.<br /><br />I can give you 99 more statements similar to the above. They all must be true if the switching is done on the negative side of the motor, but time does not allow. So let us move on to the next item.<br /><br />Fuel Injectors function similar to door bells. Inside an injector, a solenoid sits slightly in the middle of a coil of wire. When activated, the coil creates a magnetic field lifting the solenoid up allowing gasoline to escape into the engine camber.<br />The electrical unit in question is the coil of wire. By definition (line ladder logic), a continuous length of wire is determined by it source of origin to the point of termination (see diagram A). if more than one load is in series, the positive wire is identified to the point of termination of the last load. Imagine a 12 inch piece of wire in your hand. One end is connected to the 12v positive side of a battery. Then make a coil loosely around your index finger. Now check to see if voltage presents before and after the coil. The answer is yes therefore the length of wire thru the coil is positive. In-contrast a negative wire is determine by the source to the first point of termination. In this case the ECU is the first point of junction. Clearly the section of wires at point (A) and (B) (see diagram) are positive. <br /><br />As mentioned before sometime the rules of the game is more important than the game. I may want to add that you are not wrong in assuming the switching is on the negative side.<br /><br />
solinoid.gif
 

tommays

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Re: Bilge Pump wiring/switch

unless we are fixing a car ? why are we throwing in all this car stuff to prove are point ?<br /><br />I can throw in a bunch of stuff about wireing PNP VS NPN sensors to control something but it still has nothing to due with a boat :) <br /><br />We should be looking at how the ABYC or the CG or the NMMA recomends doing it, as there settting the standards for what is correct and safe on a BOAT<br /><br />tommays
 

--GQ--

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Re: Bilge Pump wiring/switch

An Injector whether in a train, a plan, a car or a boat, the principle is the same. Because everyone is familiar with cars inner working more so than boats, I think its appropriate to use it as example. Electricity has no boundary.
 

--GQ--

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Re: Bilge Pump wiring/switch

Alright folks, be back in a bit. Expecting angry rebuttals<br /><br /><br />Note: I'm not a mechanic
 

Gone

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Re: Bilge Pump wiring/switch

Boats are a different animal with special circumstances, for sure! <br /><br />Don't get too complacent though, the ECU on your motor switches grounds NOW and the rest of the boat is not far behind. Reel Poor and GQ are correct, the Ignition "sense" circuit is activated by the ignition key to wake these modules up, so that they don't actually supply voltage (current) to the + side when the key is off.<br /><br />This means that there will be shorter runs of heavy gauge wire and longer smaller wires running to switches. The result will be less weight and lower cost. <br /><br />For now, you old timers (Hey, I resemble that remark!) continue wiring as you have, but keep your eyes open for new designs.
 

Reel Poor

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Re: Bilge Pump wiring/switch

--GQ-- You'll get no angry rebuttal from here. I'm here to help those who need it when I can help, and also learn something too.<br /><br />Can we call the coil of wire in an injector a load/work? Only with a load/work in a completed ckt can you have a positive and negative side in a ckt.<br /><br />
solinoid.gif
<br /><br />In your illustration, if we change the solinoid to a motor and the ECU to a switch (closed) would you then say the switch was on the negative side of the load/work, terminating at earth?<br /><br />I would agree that electricity has no boundaries. Only after work/load has been established in a ckt can a positive "and" nagative side be determined.
 

tommays

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Re: Bilge Pump wiring/switch

trswinpn.gif
<br /><br />In my work we call this NPN logic <br /><br />
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<br /><br /><br />and this PNP logic<br /><br /><br />its a pretty much a standard to do anything high speed like EFI with NPN<br /><br /><br />tommays
 

Silvertip

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28,771
Re: Bilge Pump wiring/switch

Switching ground on cars has been done since the advent of the "dome light". The little plunger type switch in the door jam was a ground not a hot wire. As for more modern application of ground-switched devices, most of them feed the ECU. The ECU itself is fed by 12V and its primary ground is not switched. But any circuits it controls may be. You might also like to know that most telephone and communications equipment operates from a -48V power source derived from a an AC power supply. And don't even think about touching the DSL line into your home unless you thrive on surprises.
 

Reel Poor

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Re: Bilge Pump wiring/switch

What is PLC, PNP, NPN? Unabreviate please.<br /><br />Got tired of googeling. :confused:
 

--GQ--

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Re: Bilge Pump wiring/switch

Reelpoor, I am also here to learn.<br /><br /><br />Point (B) is negative if you change the solenoid to a motor therefore must not be in series with another device. So far we are assuming that the ECU acts as a switch turning the injector on and off. It maybe more complex then just a set of contacts opening and closing. If this is the case, the following diagram is appropriate.<br /><br /><br />PLC stands for Programable Logic Control. A computer program used to monitor and control various devices such as float switch, flow switch, temperature and the like in places like Oil Refineries. Instead of 100 guys running around checking 100 different things. A single person in front of a computer can monitor as well as take appropriate actions of infinite numbers of things. PLC is also used extensively in motor control application. <br /><br />PNP and NPN are type of diodes. The arrangement of the letters refer to forward bias or backward bias relating to current flow. I don't think it has anything to do with switching the negative wire, but professor Tommy will explain it to us.
 

tommays

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Re: Bilge Pump wiring/switch

http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/trancirc.htm <br /><br />PNP suppplys + to run the load like any switch and it ends up at - when its all done<br /><br />NPN does the same thing but allows + reach - after passing through the load (you could run a tiny bilge pump)<br /><br />The best example is the injector your talking about it is much faster to switch it like that<br /><br />Trust me there whats inside the ECM running the fuel injectors<br /><br /><br />When there wired as INPUTS it gets a littel strange :) the PNP sensor will supply a + single to the control or relay like any normal switch<br /><br />The NPN sensor will take the control input to 0 volts to single it and you can close a relay with it also<br /><br />For a littel more fun there made N.O. and N.C. and on some BOTH<br /><br />The best part is machines that use BOTH types randomly through out the control circuts :( <br /><br />Now i would still wire the bilge pump with the switch and fuse on the + side <br /><br /><br />tommays
 

Reel Poor

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Re: Bilge Pump wiring/switch

Thanks Tommy now I know every thing. :rolleyes: :D <br /><br />Oh yea,,,,,Hey recess be sure to install the switch in the positive lead, and I'm not going to bring up the, "to or not to" fuse thing. :p
 

recess

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Apr 23, 2003
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Re: Bilge Pump wiring/switch

Wow! Been away a week and look at what happens. Didn't mean to start WW3, but obviously some discontention on the subject.<br />Yes, will probably just wire it up with conventional wisdom. Actually, determined this back at post 8 or 9 I think. <br />I guess the actual answer to my original questions was; yes you can wire it up switched at ground, and it won't destroy the bilge pump or wiring. Guess it comes back to philosophy; just because you can, should you????<br />Thanks to all for the input. Time to go crimp, no solder, some wire. OOPS here comes another battle. Just kidding. I've researched this one too and I have no intention of going there.
 
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