blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

[jdicke6]

Hello, this is my first time on this forum, but already I am learning a good bit just from reading past posts.

I am a new owner of a 1995 wellcraft 238ccf with 1995 Johnson 225 Ocean Pro. I bought this boat from a guy in New Jersey for $6000. It started up and ran well so I never bothered to do a compression check. Upon getting some minor things taken care of at the shop I go to the Mechanic informed me that upon doing a check of the motor he discovered a Blown #6 on the powerhead. He told me it would be close to $4500 to put a new one in. I called a reputable guy back home in PA and he quoted me $3000 to rebuild the cylinder if it is rebuildable. I inquired more about the cylinder that was blown and the mechanic told me from what he could see the cylinder wall collapsed. I am not sure what this means and don't know what to do.

I talked to a few people who are pretty good with mechanical stuff and some have told me just to run it the way it is for a year. I still have plenty of power on 5 cylinders to get out and troll at 2-4 mph for stripers and supposedly the boat should achieve at least 70% performance minus the gas milage factor.

Does anyone have any imput on this.
I am wondering is it okay to run my motor like this gently until I can afford a fix?
Is the price for a rebuild/replacement power head accurate?
Would I be better to buy a refurbished or used motor for 3-4 thousand dollars and just keep mine for parts?
Does anyone know of an honest and affordable shop in the Rockville MD area(within an hour)

Any info on this would be great. Thanks

 

[wilde1j]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

Continuing to run the motor, assuming the cylinder is blown, is NOT an option, depending on the specific damage. I would do my own compression test to verify it is, in fact blown on #6. Continuing to run it will likely result in a catastrophic shutdown fairly soon. There is one iboats vendor showing a rebuilt powerhead for $3375. But I would make sure the cylinder is shot first.

BTW, I've never seen a "collapsed cylinder" in a motor, which is why I would be somewhat suspect of the mechanic's prognosis and I've rebuilt a bunch of powerheads. Let us know what you find.

There are reliable dealers on the Eastern Shore (Short's Marine in Millsboro, DE is one I deal with), but can't help you on the other side of the Bay.

Also, if you never checked the motor with a load, it doesn't tell anything, other than it will run.

 

[vegasphotoman]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

I would think with a cyl wall "collapsed" it would be making an awful sound! and run abit rough........ I have never heard of wall collapse...but then again Im not an outboard mechanic....

take it to another shop or do some compression check of your own, if it ran well....mebbe the shops trying to "drum up" business? get a second opinion...dont tell them anything about #6 just have them check it out ........

a compression tester is fairly cheap and widely avail at autoparts stores etc...see the forums for more guidlines on compression checking

have your reputable pal fix it if it has low compression. or get a rebuilt powerhead................a new or used complete eng would prob cost ALOT more than $3k

anyone else have ideas please chime in!

 

[daselbee]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

It started up and ran well so I never bothered to do a compression check. Upon getting some minor things taken care of at the shop I go to the Mechanic informed me that upon doing a check of the motor he discovered a Blown #6 on the powerhead.

Hi...sorry for your problem.
I agree with the two previous posters. I have never heard of a "collapsed cylinder", but everyone has their own terminology.
I, too, would get the compression tested again, without mentioning a possible issue on #6. Ask for the numbers for each cylinder...should be above or at 100 psi +- 10% on all six. Please post back with the results. It is certainly possible for you to pull the left head and look at the cyl yourself to try to assess the damage. Bottom left is #6 in case you need to know. Or simply pull the spark plug and look for silvery metal deposits on it. That can tell you a bit... Do any compression testing FIRST.

But, here is the real reason I posted. Those of you that know this motor, and how the fuel pump works, should have immediately wondered why the fuel pump is still working. It seems as if a catastrophic compression failure on #6 (like a burned hole in the piston) would also affect the crankcase pressures on #6, thereby affecting the fuel pump operation. But, he says it starts and runs fine.

Just wonderin' 'cause something ain't jiving....

 

[vegasphotoman]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

I agree....thats why I was thinkinig the shop was fishin for a sucker to bilk outta cash....Im sure most shops are honest but there are dupers out there!

Id leave that shop and never look back.go elsewhere!

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

No a uncommon problem on the V-6 loopers, the problem is piston ring migration due to block cooling design and maintenance, new impeller every year no matter how good its pumping. Enclosed is water mod I have done to all my customers engines and have block on bench now if you need pictures.I do not suggest other vender as only 2 do the mods(Mar-Fab & Riverside Marine (OMC/BRP powerhead repair center) and the others (OBR) do not.
http://www.mar-fab.com/MarFab_Tech_Bulletins_D9579.pdf

 

[86 century]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

https://craiglook.com/go?u=http://dubuque.craigslist.org/boa/1473565944.html&m=bmgm89&j LOOk and you will find one for alot less. If you dorve to get this one you would still be money ahead. Or this one in jersy https://craiglook.com/go?u=http://cnj.craigslist.org/boa/1467997722.html&m=27j6gdd&j or https://craiglook.com/go?u=http://longisland.craigslist.org/boa/1462688875.html&m=2eactmm&j

 

[reeldutch]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

its not piston ring migration, its the locating pin that lets loose in the oem pistons.
replace them with a wiseco piston and i bet it will never happen again.
im not so sure if this is his problem.
i would not run the engine with # 6 dead.
defenately dont run the engine you might damage it beyond repair.
bearings that eat the crank or throw a connecting rod trough the block.

 

[daselbee]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

Yeah....too early to blame it on ring dowel migration.
We haven't even seen comp numbers yet. And, ring dowel migration occurs mainly in #1 or #2....

At the risk of pi..ing someone off...the Marfab mod is WAY too expensive for the actual work performed. Talk about "seeing someone coming...".

Eight holes and some Neoprene Rod....not worth the $600.00 I was quoted.
I guess it is "intellectual property". You can do it in your backyard with a hand drill and a sturdy jig/template.

 

[jdicke6]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

Thanks for the quick thoughts on this issue. I failed to mention that this motor was supposedly rebuilt and has 126 hours on it since. The compression tested by the mechanic were 110, 110, 110, 98(intermittent spark), 110, 0. I have it winterized and stored until I can figure out what I need to do.

I have also just recently located ARG Marine out of Florida who regularly sells used but refurbished motors at a price between $3500 and $5000.
I will be testing the compression come the first week of march myself and will then be making the decision of what to do.

Thanks for the imput and I will post a follow up to let you guys know.

 

[daselbee]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

The compression tested by the mechanic were 110, 110, 110, 98(intermittent spark), 110, 0.

Now, I ask...how can a motor with 0 psi on #6 have a working fuel pump?

Careful on the Florida deals...I live here and bought from a Miami guy...went down to see it and all....but it had a defect that could not be detected while running on a stand. The nose of the crank was rusted and the upper main was rattling...something that you could not hear when on muffs, but was clearly audible when in the water. He would not make it good....

 

[trendsetter240]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

Hey jdicke6, Welcome to Iboats!

Sorry to hear about your situation, it really sucks to lay out that kind of money then find out you have major repairs to do.

Lots of good advice posted here already, I would add that if your motor does need a rebuild, you should seriously consider going the route of buying a rebuilt/used motor. Keep that one for parts or sell it as is and cut your losses.

In my opinion, it's almost never worth it to pay someone else to rebuild a motor that is more than 10 years old. They'll be charging you 100 bucks an hour give or take plus parts.

Now, If you wanted to try and rebuild it yourself, that would save you some serious coin. Especially with all help available here on iboats.

Other than that, I'd go shopping for a rebuilt powerhead or a newer, more fuel efficient motor.

Cheers!

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

It more than drilling holes on the mod as water passages from the inner water cavity are drilled to a larger size and why ruin a block if you dont know the size? To big water goes thru to quick to small not fast enough and yes the Wiscos loose locating pins also...see below,

 

[reeldutch]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

the fact is that without seeing it you cant tell the locating pin let go.
i never had a problem with wiseco pistons.
just like mar fab never had a problem after there modification.
what pistons do they recomend?
but first he should find out why it happened could be running lean ore something else.
so actualy OMC should have recalled all there v6 loopers to do mar fabs modification?
do the v6 90* etecs have this modification done?

 

[tal]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

Just my opinion but I would do my own compression test first. If the cylinder comes out to 0 I would then pull the head and inspect damage and expect to rebuild or at least fix the one hole in question. I would purchase an OEM manual and find a non dealer mechanic or someone willing to work with you and do the machining work required on your block and ring fitting. Then follow the manual and put it back together yourself and save a whole lot of money.

 

[Fl_Richard]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

I did all 6 holes .020 over with new OEM pistons, bearings etc on my 150 for about 2 grand (parts and machine work) and a weeks worth of work in the evenings.

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

the fact is that without seeing it you cant tell the locating pin let go.

You are correct but you see more 1993-99 engines with this problem than the 1992 and below, only difference is closed deck block.

i never had a problem with wiseco pistons.

I have seen a lot of problems with Wisecos,up to the early 90's they used a rolled spring pin as ring pin and it was the quickest way to "pop" a Merc motor. Pin migration was the cause of failure

just like mar fab never had a problem after there modification.
what pistons do they recomend?

Well the Mar-fab site say they have had no returns since 2001 so I would say its a pretty good mod. You can use OEM or aftermarket after the mod, if they do machining on block(boring) Larry, Jason or Kirt will ask what piston you want as Wiseco's get a tad more clearance.

but first he should find out why it happened could be running lean ore something else.

Agree 100%

so actualy OMC should have recalled all there v6 loopers to do mar fabs modification?

There is a OEM service bulletin on improving cooling to cylinder #2 that address's the pin migration.(closed deck models)

do the v6 90* etecs have this modification done?

The Mar-Fab mod is a copy of the 2000 Ficht cooling passages with some little tweaks, this mod is for the 3.0 liter motors only. The newer 3.3 liters already have this mod with some over kill with the extra water hoses into the adapter plate on exhaust housing and block. After the cooling mod's,bigger displacement,injector/EMM changes,XD oil, the pin migration problem has about disappeared.

 

[daselbee]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

Fazt...

The fuel pump is driven by pulses from #6. I just looked at a front crankcase to verify where the pulse limiter is drilled and into which cylinder it's passages go. The crossover of the intake has nothing to do with where the pulse limiter is physically installed. It is in the lowest cylinder position on the crankcase, which is #6. Go look again at a front crankcase half. I can post pics if anyone wants.

It is #6. So, how can this motor run with 0 comp on #6? There would not be any fuel pump pulses to drive the pump.

I suspect that the original poster's info is not correct. Probably given to him incorrectly from the guy that decided the cylinder was collapsed. It could run for a few mins at idle on a fully primed carb bowl load...but it would soon run out of gas. The fuel pump needs more pressure than can be delivered by #6 that has 100% blowby of all and any pressure ...for whatever the cause.

Also....

I never said the Marfab mod was not good. I merely said it costs way too much for the work they do.

I stand by my statement that you can do it in your backyard with a jig and a hand drill. I might pay $100.00 for a machine shop to do it, if they did it with an end mill, and had to bolt it into a holding fixture to steady the process, but not the $600.00 Marfab wants, PLUS you have to ship the block two ways...
Nah...I'll pass. Or better yet I will do it in the back yard.....
The hardest part is finding a source for hi-temp neoprene 1/2" rubber rods...and that wasn't too bad.....

And of course, you have to know where to drill the holes...that is obvious. I never suggested "ruining a block". I doubt the "tweaks" mentioned here...I have a Marfab block, and I have "reverse engineered" the mod. I see no "tweaks".

It is too simple a "fix" for them to charge $600.00 for it. Unless they consider it "intellectual property", (and Fazt just said they copied it from newer designs)...or unless they can "see a sucker coming a mile away".

I still think something is not jivin' with info posted on this thread.

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

Your right on pulse fitting as I was thinking wrong(14 hr day) and went to shop and checked block on bench this morning:redface:. The tweeks was from Riverside Marine in Arkansas as they where the first to start this on the factory replacement powerheads. Different size diameters where tried to the water passage holes till they got best results. Unless Kirt had a MAJOR price increase the block mod is only $210(list) not $600

 

[daselbee]

Re: blown #6 cylinder on Johnson 225

$210.00....????? Well that is certainly more like it...
I was quoted $600.00 over the phone about 1 year ago.

Any chance that is the dealer price list, and end-use consumers like me would get the $600 quote?

But I think the OP is gone, not reading this anymore...seems like he has put this to bed until March. I will too, but I still wonder why it even runs at all with #6 at zero compression.

(Looking again, I see the two price columns...didn't look close enough the first time....)