boat rot...wet foam prevention.

oops!

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
12,932
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

please forgive me....

most innovative of all..:D:D:D.......duct tape round the cooler......


and pfd's.
 

JDowie

Cadet
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
12
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

I am re-doing my deck and foam on my 16' 1965 Starcraft deep V (unknown model) this year. Here's an idea to kick around. I take my outboard off each winter and store it in my basement to keep it from freezing. How about building the deck in removable sections, and the foam removable too. This way you run your boat for the season, and take out the floor and store it in an indoor dry place along with all of the other stuff you take out. The floor/foam dries out, and since my stringers are made of aluminum (I think) the whole thing would be moisture free over and over each year. If you got foam billets and cut them to size or fitted garbage bags or tarps into the compartments to mold liquid foam to size you could remove the deck in say 3 - 4'x6' sections and one smaller section from the bow, and remove the molded foam chunks. What do you all think? Also, if there was a piece that was rotted, you would just fashion a new piece. I guess this methood would call for less glassing and stuff, since it would need to be lighter. Maybe just cut 3/4" plywood, polyurethaned (sp?). Would this effect the structural integrity of the hull? Could you fasten the removable deck some how that would be safe but removable. Maybe there is something other than screws. Bolts maybe? Somehow? It's my day off and that's all my depleted mind can squeeze out right now.

Just trying to re-invent the wheel a bit.
 

oops!

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
12,932
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

j .....hi welcome to iboats !

i think your idea has merrit !

in post # 32 sarg mentioned somthing close.


cheers
oops
 

tmcalavy

Rear Admiral
Joined
Aug 29, 2001
Messages
4,005
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

Lots of good ideas on this thread. When I replaced the floor in my 62 Texas Maid 15-foot aluminum runabout project, I used closed-cell foam insulation cut from sheets bought at the big box store. This is placed under a 1/2 inch CDX plywood deck sealed with a good exterior latex paint and screwed down to the aluminum stringers. I live in a very dry climate, at 3500+ feet altitude, and get to go boating/fishing about 6-7 times a a year so humidity and lingering moisture isn't a problem. I didn't glass the deck and made it easily removeable in case the box store foam turns out not to be a good idea. Will keep the pool noodle photo on file for future use/reference. How you re-engineer your boat during a rebuild should depend on the conditions it will live/work under. I favor an easily removable deck because water and all the gunk it carries always finds its way in and under everything...that's nature for you. Mine is re-engineered to be easily re-fitted and easily cleaned if/when it needs it.
 

JDowie

Cadet
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
12
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

TM,
What did you use for fasteners? Just regular stainless screws?

All,
The deck doesn't secure up against the inside of the hull anyways, does it? Wouldn't expansion and contraction of the wood during temperature swings cause a problem if it did?

-Jon
 

reelfishin

Captain
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
3,050
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

The best hull flotation set ups I've seen yet used air space not foam, and one that had molded white foam forms up under the gunwales. (Sort of like the foam that those hard foam throw rings are made from). The one was an old Aero Craft trihull, the gunwales formed sealed tubes the entire length of the hull, which would trap air and float the hull. Each tube was effectively an 8" diameter by 14' tube with a single plug on one end which I guess allowed you to test the air tightness of the tube. There was no under floor foam or stringers, the floor was all glass and you pretty much stood on the bottom of the hull. The lower glass was super thick, it may have been honeycombed in some way for support too. The boat was a 17' trihull from the mid 60's.

One idea I had considered is more along the inner tube idea, but why can't someone make up a bladder type of tube that could be inflated slightly to provide flotation. It wouldn't absorb water and could be changed through a small access point. I realize foam adds strength, but I think a better built hull is the better solution and a more durable flotation system.

Most of my boats are older, many have no foam or at least no lower foam. Most have under gunwale foam forms of some type. My oldest aluminum boat has only a few strips of foam under the floor which is not the type of foam that goes bad and begins absorbing water.
 

frozenokie

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Messages
309
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

if i do go the foam route...and i probablly will...im going to do a flo cote after the stringers are glassed in..on the whole bote...then the same after the floor just to make sure the whole sha-bang is sealed.....

restoring a bote is an imperfect science...with many types of ways to do it...the best way...is the way you feel you can do properly without compromising structureal/saftey/and longevitey issues....

cheers
oops

Hey Oops! - After reading all of these, I began to rethink my approach to doing the pour in foam to this Laser bass boat. I'm thinking of using a thin layer of truck bed liner material (the kind you roll on your truck bed). At least this way, if it does get wet under there, the stringers and new fiberglass that was applied would be protected from any water that happens to invade the space. So the foam may get a little wet, but we're talking stringer rot, right? I've used the stuff before and I think it's a great product, has good adhesion, is durable, and inexpensive for a gallon of it. Why not try this out for a solution to protecting our hard rebuild work?
 

oops!

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
12,932
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

hey frozen..:)

that topic was discussed in detail here

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=235265&highlight=rhino+liner

it was a really good thread....i just re-read it and one or two of the responces seemed to have disappeared....but its still good.

i had a "flo coat" poured over the entire inside of my hull still dont really know what the heck that stuff was....but ive got the local pros workin on exactally what it is.....

man was it strong!....and no way water would ever get thru it.

the rhino liner is a great idea..except for its weight..... pay close attention to what ondarvr says about it..... see what ya think!

cheers
oops
 

SgtMaj

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
1,997
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

I had read somewhere (and I can't remember where, which I apologise for), that pool noodles used a type of foam that absorbed water easily and offered little chemical/solvent resistance. However, I do like the functionality of them allowing water to pass, so I thought about possible work-arounds to that.

The main thing I came up with was using PVC pipe to create a mould with which to pour the foam. You'd have to make sure the sides were coated with wax though, and even then you might have to cut away the PVC pipe to get the core out. However, PVC pipe is cheap enough to make it feasable.

The other work-arounds would be to coat the pool noodles with a light coat of resin, allowing the resin to create the water barrier and chemical resistance barrier.

Or, use those long balloons used for balloon animal creation, and fill them with the pour foam, then tie them off and let the expanding foam inflate the balloon to create something similar in shape to the pool noodles. however, they would still be smaller unless you could find oversized ones.
 

oops!

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
12,932
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

hey sarg....

zetman did it ....he posted it here....starts on the bottom of page two

cheers
oops
 

SgtMaj

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
1,997
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

hey sarg....

zetman did it ....he posted it here....starts on the bottom of page two

cheers
oops

Oh yeah, I saw where he had done it, but didn't see where he had tested them out with the water. I guess they don't absorb as much water as I had been led to believe... but I still wonder about solvent resistance.

By the way oops, I saw a ping-pong ball floating in the river the other day, and thought about calling search and rescue to look for ya... but then I remembered you weren't finished yet. :D
 

Old Salt Oz

Seaman
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Messages
51
boat rot...wet foam prevention.

Standard Poly resins used to construct most of the older boats has 2 major draw backs:

1, Poly resins will not prevent water entry in the long term, so the 20 year
re work will not away as long as this resin is in use.

2. Poly resin will not stick to timber in the long term, this allows some
movement and results in cracks that allow moisture into the timber and it
rots.

The other common problem is the type of foam used, many will take up moisture and retain it, when little or no air will flow through or around it, in some cases it turns into a wet pulp mess.

We need a well sealed timber cover that will not allow water to pass and will not crack when the hull is pounded or otherwise stressed; we also need a foam that will not allow moisture to enter it.

Leaking deck fixtures like seat stems and deck fixing screws also contribute to moisture entering the area below the deck.

If possible, foam should not be replaced as it causes or contributes to the problem, however this is not always possible due to structural and legal requirements; but if you can avoid it by some re engineering or design changes it can be an advantage.

Starting at deck level:
All ply decks should be treated with an epoxy resin to prevent moisture ingress.

The deck to gunwales joint should be a coving of Micro fibres and epoxy resin to provide a smooth rounded well sealed joint ready for glassing.

This means cutting and shaping then applying at least 3 layers of epoxy resin. The first coat can be thinned with 30% Methylated Spirits by volume to get better penetration, particularly around the edges and end grain areas.

All deck securing screws that pass through into timber stringers should be drilled out oversize and over depth, then filled with Micro-fibres and epoxy resin, then re drilled to screw shank size only and countersunk where possible.

Any bolt holes must be treated as above but the final drill out size will be the same as the thread size; this also applies to any transom fittings.

Stringers:
Should be stripped, a coving of Micro fibres placed at the base to provide a rounded gusset for the glass, then coated with epoxy resin and cloth (no CSM) and roving's added after each 2 to 3 layers of cloth. Finishing with a roving will ensure no strands of the cloth are close to exposure on the surface; when all glass has been placed, add at least 3 coats of resin, wet on tacky will avoid sanding between coats.

Drainage:
Limber holes should be located to ensure no water is trapped regardless of point of entry, this includes fore and aft as well as athwart (side to side) ship. so may have to drill the outer stringers, drill the holes oversize, cut a length of conduit or other tubing and fix in place with epoxy resin and Micro-fibres, this ensures water will not enter the timber via the limber holes.

Foam:
If foam must be installed, use a closed cell foam and save yourself any worry about ever having to do all this again. Closed cell foam can be applied in layers cut from sheets that come in a variety of thicknesses.
Each layer should be secured when placed to prevent any movement that may cause wear; Epoxy resin and Micro fibres form a very strong glue a daub about every 6 inches on a grid pattern should be ample, just keep it away from limber holes and build layer on layer till you reach the under deck level.

I hope you find this of some help.

Avagoodweekend......

(Ducks for cover)
 

oops!

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
12,932
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

By the way oops, I saw a ping-pong ball floating in the river the other day, and thought about calling search and rescue to look for ya... but then I remembered you weren't finished yet. :D


you just had to throw me into a laughing spazm for the rest of the day ..didnt you....:D :D :D
 

oops!

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
12,932
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

thank you old salt.....

exellent reading there

cheers
oops
 

fuzzeywiggler

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Messages
357
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

You mentioned a formula for calculating how much foam/boyant material is needed for the weight of the vessel. What is it? Also I was thinking about putting some sort off boyant something or other (possibly pingpong balls :) or innertubes) under the gunnals, do you think that this would work?

Thanks Fuzzey
 

Bondo

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
71,079
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

You mentioned a formula for calculating how much foam/boyant material is needed for the weight of the vessel. What is it?

I belive that 1 Cubic Foot of water weighs about 64lbs,.....
Soo,....
1 cubic foot of Air will float about 64lbs....
 

Robj

Lieutenant
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
1,441
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

Bouyancy:

Calculate the volume of the material used for floatation in cubic inches

1 cubic foot of water = 1728 cubic inches, which I believe weighs 62.4 lbs

Volume is in cubic inches.

Bouyancy = ((volume of floatation material/1728)*62.4)-weight of floatation material.

Volume calculation for pool noodles is (pie)*(radius ^2)*length

pie = 3.14

Have a great day,

Rob.
 

JDowie

Cadet
Joined
Dec 23, 2007
Messages
12
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

So, I have a different question about flotation. My 16' 1965 Aluminum Starcraft tips to the port side bad when I stand on that side. The starboard side does not. I have tried re-distributing the weight to no avail. Would water logged buoyancy foam cause my boat to tip like that?

Thanks
 

Robj

Lieutenant
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Messages
1,441
Re: boat rot...wet foam prevention.

So, I have a different question about flotation. My 16' 1965 Aluminum Starcraft tips to the port side bad when I stand on that side. The starboard side does not. I have tried re-distributing the weight to no avail. Would water logged buoyancy foam cause my boat to tip like that?

Thanks

Yep. You need to investigate further.

Have a great day,

Rob.
 
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