Braking incident

[SS MAYFLOAT]

During my seasonal trip to the launch ramp, I ended up in the middle of an intersection of a 4 way stop. Only one brake locked completely. The other side I had just adjusted the shoes out where they barely was dragging on the drum. The one side that was locking up seemed fine and did not have any drag on it.

It is a Float-on brand tri-axle trailer. After doing some research, I have found for the weight that it is carrying that it should have at least 2 brake axles. The one axle has surge style braking.

If I put another set of brakes on the other two axles, would I need to get a bigger master cylinder for the other axles? The master cylinder now is what was on the trailer when I purchased the boat. The master cylinder is actually out of a 1962 Ford Falcon

I have also thought about converting it to electric brakes, but how much current is needed for at least 2 axles? Would it still be good to leave the front axle with the surge brakes and then convert the middle and back axle to electric?

I only tow my boat 2 times a year. Once to the lake and once from the lake. However, I would eventually like to travel to other lakes at a further distance. The braking issue has always made me weak kneed when towing this rig. The truck I use is my bucket truck which has a gross of 11,000 pounds. Add that to the 8,500 pounds plus (depending on the fuel, water, and supply load) I'm getting to close to over 20,000 pounds. Getting this rig stopped is a major concern that I must get corrected

Right now before I act on a solution, I wish to get some ideas and thoughts from some of the master minds here. Thanks.........SS

 

[Splat]

Re: Braking incident

Personally I hate surge brakes. Especially with a heavy load. Electrics are the way to go in my opinion. With electric brakes you can set the controller in the truck to Lead a little bit with the trailer brakes. This way when you step on the pedal the trailer brakes engage a little before the truck brakes.

If you go to electric brakes don't skimp on the in truck controller. Inertia braking controll is the way to go. I prefer this controller as it's easy, acurate, self leveling, and the only one I know of that operates in reverse. This model will handle up to 4 axles at once.
http://www.brakecontroller.com/prodigy1.htm

Some people do not like electric brakes for use in water. I've never had a issue with them. There's not much to go wrong. Much less than with conventional hydraulic systems.

Bill

 

[rbh]

Re: Braking incident

Good morning-
it seems as your dealing with the same kinds of problems that I was dealing with when I first got my boat.
The boat we got came on a trailer and we were worried that it was to small for the application. we took the factory dry weight and compared that to the GVW of the trailer and found that it was 500 pounds give or take under the GVW if we did not load it with fuel. The trailer has electric brakes on both of the tandem axles, and I would guess that any trailer manufacture that would place the GVW sticker or stamp on the trailer (reach) would take into consideration braking, check your rating, as well as your vehicle. We first pulled it with a f250 and it was snakey and then we tried the f350 tandem and what a diffrence (I did not want to have to haul it with my t40c telsta)
Good luck (I think that brakes tend to get moisture in them if not used and that tends to lock them up)
rob

 

[NYBo]

Re: Braking incident

Dang, SS, your trailer sounds like an accident waiting to happen. With that big a load, I would go with either electric or surge with disks.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Braking incident

As I see it, there are two issues here - the number of axles that should have brakes and preferred braking system.

In many states, you would not be legal to tow the weight involved with only one set of brakes. That may be true in your home state, as well. That said, the legality of it all, is but one of the key issues. Most importantly, you should consider your setup purely from a standpoint of your own safety and that of others on the road. Simply out, you are "under braked."

I am also a person who dislikes surge brakes. I prefer electric brakes mostly because of the ability to adjust both onset of braking and braking force. I've spent quite a bit of time towing large, fully loaded gooseneck trailers with vehicles ranging from a Ford F250 to a Ford F550. In each application, we used electric brakes and I always felt comfortable with them.

The only problem that I see with electric brakes on a boat trailer, is the likelyhood of malfunction due to full water immersion and corrosion. I would think, however, that fresh water immersion would be much easier to deal with than frequent saltwater immersion.

I guess if I were in your shoes, I would try to do some homework on braking systems, to see what might work best for you. The first step is, of course, to do exactly what you have already done by asking here, but I would talk to a few trailer dealers too. If they tell you that electric brakes would be OK for fresh water boat trailer use, that's the route I would take.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Braking incident

I only use my boat in fresh water. At most, I'd be dunking the trailer just a few more times than just the 2 I do now. The units made today would be more likely to stand up to water than the older units.

I am leaning towards the electric at this point. I have emailed Floaton with my questions also. They have been good in the past in directing me on finding parts.

Thanks Jay, that was the type info I was looking for. ..........SS

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Braking incident

I have the best of both worlds. Hydraulic disk brakes and an electric/hydraluic actuator. I have the newer Tekonsha brake controller than the Prodigy.

Is that 27' Bayliner in the picture the one with the one axle brake set up? If so, you are severely under braked.

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Braking incident

surge and electric, have there separate use. us flatlanders prefer hydrolic, hilly, mountainous you need electric. all need regular maintenance.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Braking incident

I prefer electric in flatlands also. The reason is the same as I mentioned before - ability to set brake onset and brake force. This is a very important function to me, because it allows you to set appropriate braking parameters whether loaded or empty, or something inbetween.

Bruceb58's arrangement sounds great too. Additionally, I have also seen "air over hydraulic" setups. This system is common on dual, tandem goosenecks. It does the same thing as the electric/hydraulic system, but the towing vehcle has an air compressor and a modulating system attached to the brake pedal. While either of these systems are excellent, I think cost would be an issue for many people.

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Braking incident

Thankfully I only have a 15 mile trip to the lake. Like many others, I know the route practically blindfolded. I haven't had much trouble before as I anticipate my stopping. Its those unexpected emergency stops that is going to get me eventually.

When both brakes did work evenly, it seemed as if the front axle didn't have much effect on stopping. Maybe an addition to brakes on the second or middle axle will have better effect. However, it seems that there is more weight on the rear axle. This sorta makes me think I should be putting the brakes on the rear vs the middle. Or just remove the front axle brakes and transfer them so that I have braking on the last two axles.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Braking incident

The lack of braking that you experienced could be caused by a couple of things. The most likely reason is simply because they were trying to stop more weight than a single set of brakes could handle. Another is that they might not have been adjusted properly, either at the brakes or at the piston, if your unit has an adjustment at the piston.

I'm inclined to think that lack of weight on the axle is not your problem, just because the wheels would tend to lock up when the brakes were applied, if that were the case. Also, bear in mind that weight tends to shift forward when brakes are applied. This is why most cars have disc brakes on the front and drum brakes on the rear.

Here's a good article on the issue of electric brakes on boat trailers. One of the things in it, which I didn't know about ubtil reading it, is that some states are passing laws that make surge brakes illegal for non-commercial vehicles. Considering how many trailers of all types have these systems, that seems bizarre to me. None-the-less, apparently this is the latest trend in "vehicle safety."

http://www.boatus.com/trailerclub/upkeep/electricbrakes.asp

 

[bowman316]

Re: Braking incident

what about Air brakes, like what truckers use?
or is that the same thing as surge brakes?

 

[SS MAYFLOAT]

Re: Braking incident

Haven't received anything back from Floaton as of yet. According to their website, all they offer is surge type.

I did a bit of searching and have found that I need to figure out what size I need for my load. The trailer is rated for 10K pounds. The brakes are rated in pairs. 8K capacity would be for both sides or 4K per wheel. So, if I put electric brakes on 2 axles, a pair of 5K capacity should do it. Or, I could put brakes on all three axles (cha ching!) with the capacity of 3.5K per axle giving me 10.5 total in capacity. Of course the 8K brakes and drums are substantially more than the 3.5K units.

Thinking of doing all three seems as if it would give me more insurance of getting stopped if a failure happened in one or two wheels.

Now the next step,,,,,,,,,,getting my wife to open up her purse

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Braking incident

How many lugs and diameter are the wheels?

 

[captharv]

Re: Braking incident

try:
www.championtrailers.com
They have kits which will allow adding the second axle brakes to what you already have.
Let me make a strong suggestion, here:
Loose drum braks and go completely with disks. The stopping powe is better and maintenance is less.
Yes, I understand that you only use the trailer twice a year, and the ride is very short, however, the safety of your people and others comes first. Besides, as mentioned above, its probly illegal to have brakes on one axle, and really dangerous....I am really suprized that a manufacturer would sell a trailer with brakes on one axle. That boat has to have a tow weight of over 10K.
I have a boat and trailer combo which weighs about 8K. I upgraded trailers last year and went from 4 wheel drums, bias ply tires and springs to 4 wheel disks, radial tires, tortion suspension. BIG difference in ride and particularly stoping power...

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Braking incident

I am really suprized that a manufacturer would sell a trailer with brakes on one axle.

They do it frequently. I used to pull a 24' heavy duty utility trailer quite a bit that was rated for 12,000 pounds. The trailer came from the manufacturer with one set of undersized, electric brakes. Fully loaded and pulled behind its usual tow vehicle - a Ford F250 diesel - the rig was scary! That lead to a brake rebuild in short order. We soon installed larger brakes on the axle that allready had them and put a matching set on the other axle. The brake controller in the truck was also upgraded to a unit that could handle the added amperage.

 

[kamby]

Re: Braking incident

I used to pull a 24' car hauler, 2006 pj trailers. With an f250 super duty and the 5.3 (i think) the trailer was rated for 12k + and weighed about 2k curb weight. Pulled a 4k pickup truck from montana to washington with only 1 axle brake and i had to set the controller down to low cause the trailer grabbed to much and slowed it down faster than what im used to. I've never been a heavy breaker and all my vehicles still have original breaks. Like with towing anything its not a race take it slow and use extra distance when breaking.

 

[jay_merrill]

Re: Braking incident

I used to pull a 24' car hauler, 2006 pj trailers. With an f250 super duty and the 5.3 (i think) the trailer was rated for 12k + and weighed about 2k curb weight. Pulled a 4k pickup truck from montana to washington with only 1 axle brake and i had to set the controller down to low cause the trailer grabbed to much and slowed it down faster than what im used to.

Bear in mind that at a 2,000 pound empty weight and a 4,000 pound cargo weight, your trailer was only grossing at 6,000 pounds - half its rated GVWR. Load that trailer up to its full 12,000 pound capacity, and you would probably find the single set of brakes to be inadequate.

I do agree with you about the benefits of driving prudently, however. The few minutes saved in trying to drive too fast, just aren't worth the added danger.