Build vs restore?

matt167

matt167

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Boating for years, but I'v never had my own. Always have went with my dad, and I havn't able to meet up with him to go fishing/ boating in a couple years. So it's time I get my own. I usually like to build/ restore rather than buy when it comes to lots of stuff. I have a scratch built hotrod project ongoing, but it's becoming no longer fun to work on. Getting a legal title will be $$$ and I'v been thinking about sending it down the road. I have a '51 Chevy that runs and drives just fine/ meets my personal 'old car' requirement.. Anyway

My wants in a boat. Easy to launch in Erie canal launches, also capable of launching in the Finger lakes in any lake conditions and Occasional Ontario on a calm day. Cruising and fishing purposes. Cuddy cabin preferable. I live a couple hours from said waters, so on-boat camping would be nice to extend a trip on or off the water.. Hard/ Soft top is almost a requirement but I could do with a Bimini if it had to be. Size 15-21' but 15-19' is where I would really like it. I/O or outboard doesn't matter much to me. Glass or Aluminum is good. Anything that I would buy is going to need refit/restored anyway. Speed does not matter as long as it will plane

Boats I know will fit the bill and I'd be happy with. Starcraft Chieftain or Islander. Many of the "Sportfisher" boats with cuddies and, C Dory's.. Many of these boats are too expensive for me ( Namely C Dory ), and the others are hard to find in good condition which is great for me being I'm considering a restoration, but I do not know a 'fair price' of said boats, so I do not know how the costs compare. I only know what my dad spent on a crushed '73 Chieftan over 10 years ago. I know I would not consider a boat with an OMC drive unless it was cheap ( so I could afford to replace ), Merc 470 ( so I could afford to replace ). 120/140 Mercruiser Alpha or pre alpha would do for my uses, as well as a 4 stroke outboard. 2 stroke possibly.
I expect 1 year to 2 years to complete the build/ restoration, and I hope the final product will come out less than $6k including boat power. Of course I will need a run around boat for next season to 'fill the void'. But I'll take care of that in the spring.

With that, I was more considering building a boat from scratch. Currently building a Glen L/ Hankinson 8' Drift Pram, which I bought plans for in preparation for building a larger boat.. Drift pram should be done within the month or next. Boats on my possible build list Are. Cabin Skiff CS 20 Cruisette Wanderlust Or Carioca

Any of these would be built with clear doug fir lumber and AA Marine grade Doug fir plywood, as that is what is available locally and fairly inexpensive. I added the cost for the cabin skiff, and it would be about $800 in plywood, so the Hull cost itself would be about $1,500 give or take most likely. Not looking for extravagant woodwork or finish, I just want it 'nice'.

As for my tow Vehicle. It is a 1995 Chevy K1500 extended cab long bed, NV 3500 5spd. 14 bolt SF rear end. 3.42 gears. Class 5 Valley hitch and it has a trailer brake controller. Rated to tow 6k LBS IIRC..

So the question is. Build or Restore?
 
G

glenn property of pam

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Re: Build vs restore?

proberly both if you realy are capable of the work involed in scratch built. most real cheap cheap boats are being sold as engine and trailer with a junk hull so its a cheaper way to buy the motor and controls you will need. also theres a lot of other stuff on a junk hull that you will need like fittings and bow rings and stuff that may not sound like much but added up it costs hundreds to buy them in florida 1000 dollars can buy you a restorable cubby cabin hull with good motor and trailer then 3k to restore and 1k extra because its a boat the larger ones seem the cheapest as people do not want to pay to store them and some towns do not allow boats to be stored in the yard.
 
Woodonglass

Woodonglass

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Re: Build vs restore?

Unless you have a Large inside facility and lots of experience in woodworking then I'd HIGHLY recommend you consider a find and restore project. Building a LARGE Wooden boat is a Major undertaking that will easily consume 5K in costs and several years in time.
 
matt167

matt167

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Re: Build vs restore?

I think I'm capable of building a large boat. I'm on Glen L's forums also, where the support is good, and building the small drift pram. It only took a few mins of looking at the plans/ patterns to figure out what I needed to do. It's a simple stitch and glue design, which is why I considered the Cabin Skiff first ( also S&G ), and went as far as added the plywood costs up, using the BOM and plywood quote from my supplier

I'm keeping a close eye on prices of those kinds of cheap buildable boats, but what I'm finding in the $500-1,500 range are runabouts and bowriders, mainly Bayliners. I did figure on buying a junker boat for the bow rings, tie downs and fittings, as well as Nav lighting. And the trailer. If I built an I/O design, I would probably source a junker Runabout, or BR ski boat with a Merc 140 I/O and use everything.
I have a saws all and a Chainsaw to take care of a junk hull.
Boat Angel on Ebay has some great deals. Lot of buildable boats have gone for $10.50 + the 'document fee's which would still equate to a sub $300 boat and trailer, but most in my area are runabouts and bowriders. There was 1 Sea ray cuddie that was buildable. I think it was a '79. But when it came down to it, the bid went to a few hundred in a short time, and I would have had to commit to it that day, and then figure out when I could go get it
 
matt167

matt167

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Re: Build vs restore?

Woodonglass said:
Unless you have a Large inside facility and lots of experience in woodworking then I'd HIGHLY recommend you consider a find and restore project. Building a LARGE Wooden boat is a Major undertaking that will easily consume 5K in costs and several years in time.
Click to expand...

Just saw your post after posting my last. Only boat plan company I was considering was Glen L, as their plans are geared to amateurs and are full size ( trace and cut ) patterns. Out of all the plans, I like the Cabin Skiff the best. I have the video on building the Console Skiff ( same hull ) from long ago when my dad was considering building it. He ended up buying/ returning to service, a Starcraft Chieftain he bought because it was cheaper, and he only wanted to catch fish ( he didn't do much for the cosmetics ).. I'm not a major woodworker, but I have experience.. Also, the Cabin Skiff is fully patterned, and there are a few builders on the Glen L forums that have done the CS.

The cost is 1 thing that I'm really trying to add up.. I know some of the nice wooden boats, like the Zip, Gentry, Malahini ect. Can cost as much as $20k+. 1 builder of the Cabin Skiff reported $17k including electronics and a brand new ( at the time ) EFI Honda 50hp 4 stroke. Others report $5-6k for the 'utility' type of boat, so I guess it's largely variable. If I could get to the $6k mark and not go past it either way, I'd rather build. But If I can find say a 1970 something Starcraft Chieftan/ Islander that's not too torn up for $1k or so. I'd be stupid not to go for that instead.
 
Woodonglass

Woodonglass

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Re: Build vs restore?

I checked out the Cabin Skiff on Glen-L. The hull build is fairly straight forward, but the rest of it involves a lot of detailed woodworking finish work. Nice boat, lot's of work. I still think a restore would be a better project and I LOVE wood boats.
 
ondarvr

ondarvr

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Re: Build vs restore?

I can find four or five hulls similar to what you're looking for around here just about any day of the week, many owners would even pay you to haul it away.

Some people love a project and the enjoyment is found in the challenge, others want to go boating in a custom or semi custom boat that fits a need and the project (build or rebuild) is about the only way to get there. You need to decide which group you're in to decide which way to go.

A rebuild on an old hull can save years and many thousands of dollars when compared to a new build, but it doesn't have nearly the WOW factor of a well done self built boat.
 
G

glenn property of pam

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Re: Build vs restore?

have you considered a road trip to pick up a boat. cuddys are laying all over the place in florida and there dirt cheap.
 
matt167

matt167

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Re: Build vs restore?

I think at most, I'd want to go 3-400 miles if the boat was perfect for what I wanted and a good start for little of nothing.. If gas were a bit cheaper, I'd probably go farther.. Boats I would look into seem to 'exist' , but the boats I find, are still 2-4 hrs drive from my house. This is kinda a 'possibly' boat for me. I could use it, but it would never be what I really want. http://ithaca.craigslist.org/boa/3299127125.html.. Then it goes all the way to this. Right close to me. 35 or so miles away great price, but it's too big and with no trailer, it doesent fit what I want http://albany.craigslist.org/boa/3325901544.html. Then it gets to " pay me to haul my trash away " http://albany.craigslist.org/boa/3325872570.html

These are boats that are within, what I would consider a reasonable driving distance
 
64osby

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Pmccraney

Pmccraney

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Re: Build vs restore?

Even if you are handy and like projects, I would say go with a metal boat for your first restore. A starcraft islander would probably be perfect for you. Fun/straightforward to restore, has a cuddy cabin, could handle some bigger water as long as its not too snotty..

Then, if you decide you truly love boating and want to build one from scratch, you can build a wooden one, but have a usable boat to enjoy while you are building a boat from scratch.

Just my .02. We'll be on board whatever you decide.
 
matt167

matt167

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Re: Build vs restore?

I did actually plan on having a boat while building/ restoring 1. Runabouts and bowriders are pretty cheap. I could probably rent or buy my dads little boat, which is a 1970 something Starcraft 16' Runabout ( tinny ). Not sure what model but it has a 25hp Johnson. He put new floors and transom in it 2 years ago. He doesn't use it much anymore and has talked about selling it, since he got a better boat for what he needs.

Those Islanders are just what I would be looking for. The '88 is the most promising to get cheap but it's OMC cobra drive, so I'd need a donor boat for a Merc 140/165 outdrive, and floors/ transom would need done. I could probably go and find a nice 80's-90's-'00's Islander ready to go for less than the total price needed on that boat. And, yes all of those boats would be about a 5 hour drive for me..

I did have an idea, and it's not really what I want, but I think it would work. Bayliners and a lot of other boats seem to share hulls between cuddies and bowriders. If I found say a nice Bayliner Capri 195 bowrider, and a delapitated 195 capri cuddy. Can't the cap get removed from the cuddy and put on the bowrider? I know some of those boats have a well you need to step into to go into the cabin, which would need switched. Seems like it would work tho.. I also thought about the Glen L console skiff. In the video, they say because the console is not structural to the boat, any configuration could be used. I think I could turn it into a runabout with a small cuddy. The Console skiff does not have as much woodwork, being just a hull and a console in it's per plan configuration.
 
Pmccraney

Pmccraney

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Re: Build vs restore?

Not trying to be a critic, but I see you going down a complex and expensive path trying to combine boats, switch out caps, etc... (especially on an old bayliner). I think you would probably be making your life harder than it needs to be.

Project hulls are a dime a dozen, so if you look around a little while, you will find exactly what you are looking for at a nice price...
 
matt167

matt167

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Re: Build vs restore?

That's kinda what I thought after I posted that. I don't even care for the looks of the Bayliner cuddies, but looking at the pics, it might work, which is why I posted it. Interesting concept anyway.
 
Pmccraney

Pmccraney

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Re: Build vs restore?

Chris Craft is a good name in terms of brand quality, cult following, etc... That said, I paid 350 for a Chris Craft in much better shape than that and I think I overpaid for it. You pretty much have to put a zero value on a boat in that condition with no motor, etc... He says its "strong" but I would bet it needs a transom, stringers, etc... I can't really see the trailer through the forest of weeds, but that would be the only value. I would not pay him anywhere close to 1500 for that boat.

Note that he did not take any pictures of the interior or the cuddy... I'm guessing there is a reason for that.

Also, mid 80s is sort of known as "low point" in Chris Craft history in terms of their quality of product.
 
Woodonglass

Woodonglass

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Re: Build vs restore?

IMHO he should PAY YOU to haul it off!!! If it's been out in the elements uncovered then it's gunna be a TOTAL restore costing thousands of dollars. The trailer is the ONLY thing that MIGHT have value. Again, just my opinion.
 
Stevens520

Stevens520

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Re: Build vs restore?

That old Glastron does look like an interesting project. As far as building your own, the Bar Tender is a pretty neat design with the ability to take some pretty rough water: http://www.bartenderboats.com/ With restorations is is hard to beat an Islander or Cheiftain with as far as ease and expense goes.:)
 
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