builder bashing

btbldr2

Cadet
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
15
I see a lot of people talking about poor construction and "defective" hulls, especially when doing jobs like replacing stringers.
First off, your boat is probably not defective, those voids and air pockets you are grinding out are probably there due to the last layer being applied to the inside of the hull being very resin rich - that's to assure a good seal over the glass (water-proofing). The voids occur because this last layer is two processes being done at once and unlike structural layups, this last layer is not rolled out or 'squeeged' to eliminate excess resin and also why you may find slight puddles of resin. All that material should be ground out, especially those resin pockets. You don't want to tab in a new piece on structurally unsound (brittle) resin, but rather to the hull material.
You may also find a black or grey top coating peeling away. I know one manufacturer used to use "resin tar" as a final water proofing coating and another that used an emulsion coating not only in the hull, but to waterproof their foam also. None of these are problems or manufacturing defects.
There's also the "crappy materials" bunch. If you want a super light, carbon fiber boat, you can buy one. We can build boats that will easily last more than your lifetime and cost more than your home. Probably more than your last couple of houses. So materials is a non-issue except to those of us restoring boats to keep them in service well beyond their normal service life, abuse the crap out of them by leaving them stored outdoors, bow down, without any kind of cover, etc., etc.. Would you expect your car to last as long as your boat? Would you pound your car, neglect it and abuse it like your boat?
Then there's the "one size fits all" people. The ones who think all boat construction designs are the same and structural components are all interchangable. In a word they are not. All manufacturers are always looking for strongest possible result, using affordable materials and construction methods, which is why what is good for one, is not necessarily good and may even be detrimental in another. One good example is stringers. A stringer can be designed as a hollow fiberglass beam. The older boats we are interested in were, for the most part, not designed for that and the cores (lumber) in these older boats is usually part of the structure and the hull is formed with those localized stresses and the flexural and compression as well as other properties of the core material in mind. Substituting structural materials without understanding what they do or how they act in a given application is just plain stupid, even if you think "it works".
Before making any change, first determine whether or not it is structural. I saw in one thread someone was planning on a new deck, had ripped the old one out and wanted to use the old edge seal as the bottom and raise the height of the stringers 1/2" to allow for it. Some moron answered that as a yes without getting any other info! The answer should have been absolutly not, as apparently both these individuals will eventually find out. Hey... because you did something and for at least the time being it seems to be working for you, does not make it right.
That edge seal is just lightly tabbed into the thin hull side. In many (most if not all) production boats, the deck is structural and needs to be laid in against the chine - he may have tried to overcome this by installing bulkheads or some other bandaid fix, but why? That thin flap of fiberglass could be zipped off and ground flat all the way around in probably less than an hour on the average under 20 foot boat.

I guess what I'm trying to say here, is if you wouldn't pull a car out of the junk yard and ***** at the manufacturer about what a crappy job they did building it, why do you do it with boats? And why do you expect materials and or other critical components to be interchangeable when you'd never expect that in any other form of transportation?
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: builder bashing

I think it would help if you filled out your profile so people could see what your background is in this field. Or describe it here so everyone will be able know some details.

I see some things that are accurate and other things may not be so correct in this post. It would help to know which part of the marine industry you've been involved in because people from different parts of the industry can have a slightly different view of construction depending on their background. Frequently not enough information on construction details get passed from one portion of the industry to another, so if you have information please pass it along.
 

btbldr2

Cadet
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
15
Re: builder bashing

Sorry for the rant - I came here to learn about newer materials and techniques, not to offend anyone. When in repair, we had liability and insurance issues that are moot points here as well as I am sure some of our repair procedures were (eg. back then you never ran a deck -or sole- seam down a stringer and when using ply it was always placed cross-wise which is how I still -{ok I'm an out dated antique}- do things now, even though I've seen projects here doing that with no comment to the contrary). Things change, and I'm sure not an authority on anything at all. All my training was on-the-job and not necessarily the best... Just what the owners insisted on to the point of near fanaticism. As for the other, well, the boat building industry seems to get blamed for a lot of things on the forums that are really dictated by consumer driven demand, practical pricing and or lack of understanding.
Bowriders are the big thing these days - Personally I don't understand how they can even make a safe design like that where they know the kids, the cooler, and who knows what else are all going to be way up there in the bow in an otherwise unloaded boat. I can't really see how they do it and still maintain decent safety and performance, so mostly I'm here to learn.
I'll "keep my mouth shut" from now on and just keep trying to learn the new stuff. As you've apparently seen, I'm both outdated and must have had some information that's really changed over the years.
Thank you for being so nice, I'll keep my nose out of other peoples projects.
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: builder bashing

I saw you were online and filled out your profile with some info, good start, but it didn't list what type construction you were involved in. Wood, Composite, production, power, custom, size? These all influence a person's opinion on products and methods.

There's no problem getting involved in other peoples projects, I'd hate to see someone leave thinking they aren't welcome.

As you said, the people you worked for had strong and specific opinions on methods of production, I see companies building almost identical boats using very different methods, they each choose them for their own reasons, good or bad. Yet both brands may have very good reputations in the industry, sometimes the better built boat has a worse reputation.

The main thing to remember is that most of the boats discussed here are around 30 years old, purchased for little or no money and the budget for repairs is even less. The objective is get it back on the water as affordably as possible, sometimes this means it may not be done with the best materials or methods, but it will work and be safe on the water for the next several years. This isn't something a business could do and survive, there's no money in it for the cost people would even consider paying.

Read, enjoy, give recommendations and opinions, just don't get discouraged.
 

Bob_VT

Moderator & Unofficial iBoats Historian
Staff member
Joined
May 19, 2001
Messages
26,064
Re: builder bashing

Yes and I am interested in the "Resin Tar" you have mentioned and which manufacturer uses it. I could not find any reference to using "resin tar" anywhere.

We have a very talented people here in the restoration section. Some that repair Yachts for a living and do jobs we would never consider...... we do not have any morons here. What is that old saying???? Oh, the dumbest question is the one never asked!

Please post about this elusive "resin tar" and enlighten us on which company uses an emulsion coating to coat the foam.

Keep in mind that 95% of the member's here do this as a hobby and do not have access to all the whiz bang gee whiz tools...... I would not expect nor criticize any DIY member.... I have seen some real ingenious methods here.
 

bigredinohio

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Messages
604
Re: builder bashing

We have a very talented people here in the restoration section. Some that repair Yachts for a living and do jobs we would never consider...... we do not have any morons here. What is that old saying???? Oh, the dumbest question is the one never asked!

Keep in mind that 95% of the member's here do this as a hobby and do not have access to all the whiz bang gee whiz tools...... I would not expect nor criticize any DIY member.... I have seen some real ingenious methods here.

I completely agree!
 

btbldr2

Cadet
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
15
Re: builder bashing

Yes and I am interested in the "Resin Tar" you have mentioned and which manufacturer uses it. I could not find any reference to using "resin tar" anywhere.

We have a very talented people here in the restoration section. Some that repair Yachts for a living and do jobs we would never consider...... we do not have any morons here. What is that old saying???? Oh, the dumbest question is the one never asked!

Please post about this elusive "resin tar" and enlighten us on which company uses an emulsion coating to coat the foam.

Keep in mind that 95% of the member's here do this as a hobby and do not have access to all the whiz bang gee whiz tools...... I would not expect nor criticize any DIY member.... I have seen some real ingenious methods here.

The resin tar was used by fibercraft back in the 60's - I've done 2 resto's
on those (working on a third now) and all were the same. Apparently they also did a complete wrap (in fiberglass) around the stringers before installation (I thought the first was strange, the second a fluke, but now I think that that was their standard practice). They also only had one thickness tabbed into the hull and the second (also wrapped) bonded to the first. I have a digital camera now and have pics of the current project. They show what has to be the original stringers and the minimal amount of rot on the ones I peeled. Just unbelievable in that oldie but goodie. Further, sturdy as they are, you can see there was not full resin saturation to the inside (against the lumber) yet they were so solid, I almost didn't rip them out. As for the resin tar, it took a lot of research to figure out that that was what it was and I did not save any info on it. Seemed useless as it peeled same as an extra layer of straight resin would, probably easier. There are several outfits now that call themselves fibercraft - one on the west coast and one in Canada, don't recall the other, but I think they just do accy's. so I wouldn't know who to call on that one.

The coated boat was an old Evinrude tri-hull (another oldie but goodie) also an antique which I'd probably still have today if they hadn't bought it back from me (for a price I couldn't refuse) Remember the old saw the boat in half adverts with both halves still floating? They used (in those days) plain old styrafoam, so I guess they had to coat the stuff. That too was a really tough skin chemically, yet you could easily poke through it (like paint - and maybe it was) and I have absolutly no idea what they used, but I'd bet if you gave 'em a jingle... With the plug out and three people on board that boat floated level with the water just covering your feet.

Hope this helps, and again, sorry if I came accross as an ***hole.

Happy sailing....
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: builder bashing

I've used rubberized undercoating to seal foam sometimes, it actually worked better than I thought it would.
 

lakelover

Rear Admiral
Joined
Mar 26, 2003
Messages
4,386
Re: builder bashing

btbldr2, please don't "rant & run"!

You obviously have fairly extensive experience and certainly a lot of knowledge that would be useful to many of us, so welcome and please continue to offer your thoughts and opinions! I welcome all comments on my project, an inexperienced guy like me likes to have all the info he can get.
 

skargo

Banned
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
4,640
Re: builder bashing

I'[m just waiting for btbldr1 to get here and straighten everything out. :)
 

btbldr2

Cadet
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Messages
15
Re: builder bashing

btbldr2, please don't "rant & run"!

You obviously have fairly extensive experience and certainly a lot of knowledge that would be useful to many of us, so welcome and please continue to offer your thoughts and opinions! I welcome all comments on my project, an inexperienced guy like me likes to have all the info he can get.

Got ya, thanks. I love boats and love boating ('specially fishing) and boat history. The one I have now though, will undoubtedly be my last. Just can't crawl around in 'em the way I used to and each one takes a bit longer. I see the talent and know-how here and because this is my last, I really would like it to be one of my best and because things do change is why I too am here - this one should be the one I pass down. As I stated earlier, I am not an "authority" on anything at all, especially anything newer than 10 years and would never claim to be. Technology keeps getting better and better, so we never stop learning. I even like the electronic treats they keep coming up with!

As someone else said, there's more than one way to skin a cat and it's how you percieve things that determines the best way for you to skin your cat.
My best advice would be to do whatever rings true to you and yes, that does take a lot of reading.

I live in Florida. When I'm grinding out a boat, my entire head is covered and I wear a respirator, even just sweeping up the dust. Other than that though, nothing but my swim trunks. I have an outside shower (cold water only) and have found that the most itch free way (for me) to work as long as I never rub or touch myself. That means a good hosing down several times a day which can be pretty uncomfortable for the moment, but it more than makes up for not having to suffer the itch agony later. Also a little vasaline rubbed on the flange of the respirator and goggles where they go against your face helps. Would I recommend doing that to others? No. Sounds too stupid, even my wife won't tell about that one any more. I was told by someone that the cold water closes the pores and if rinsed (no rubbing) long enough, flushes away all the contaminants (glass powder). The cold water doesn't leave you feeling any too manly either, but that's another story.

I don't want to come accross as a foolish old man, but at the same time, if I can give something back, I feel it only fair to do so.


Smooth sailing...
 

BobsGlasstream

Commander
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
2,128
Re: builder bashing

I don't think it is ever a good practice to bash anyone. boat manufactures or DIY advocates ( which I am one). I have read a lot of threads on this site and found them to be quite educational. I may not always agree with them but who's to say what is write or wrong without doing the proper testing.

What I hate the most is blanket statements made without any facts to back them up.

I have worked in the urethane foam business for the better part of 30 years, but I will still research before I say someone is wrong. I work with foam, not once a year or once a month but every single day. I also know that I still don't have all the answers about foam.

I have made dash panels, bumpers, seats and steering wheels for boats out of foam. Along with thousands of automotive parts.

That's the end of my 2 cents worth.

Have a good day.
Bob
 

HVAC Cruiser

Lieutenant
Joined
Sep 12, 2009
Messages
1,254
Re: builder bashing

I live in Florida. When I'm grinding out a boat, my entire head is covered and I wear a respirator, even just sweeping up the dust. Other than that though, nothing but my swim trunks. I have an outside shower (cold water only) and have found that the most itch free way (for me) to work as long as I never rub or touch myself. That means a good hosing down several times a day which can be pretty uncomfortable for the moment, but it more than makes up for not having to suffer the itch agony later. Also a little vasaline rubbed on the flange of the respirator and goggles where they go against your face helps. Would I recommend doing that to others? No. Sounds too stupid, even my wife won't tell about that one any more. I was told by someone that the cold water closes the pores and if rinsed (no rubbing) long enough, flushes away all the contaminants (glass powder). The cold water doesn't leave you feeling any too manly either, but that's another story.

Smooth sailing...

I was taught that about cold water too
Another thing that helps with fiberglass is to use baby powder on your skin before you start. I learned that from an old insulator, it seems to help alot

Regards, Bill
 

skargo

Banned
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
4,640
Re: builder bashing

What's funny is I am on other vehicle restoration boards, and I hear many more complaints about automobile manufacturers than I do here. It's the same everywhere, cars, boats, motorcycles, planes.
 

Azonic

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
279
Re: builder bashing

I don't think it is ever a good practice to bash anyone. ...

The most valid point made so far about this thread!

And since the thread is about not bashing, but in turn was a bash...

I suggest it be closed, locked, and deleted...
 

Bob_VT

Moderator & Unofficial iBoats Historian
Staff member
Joined
May 19, 2001
Messages
26,064
Re: builder bashing

Probably the primary thing I can brag about here in the restoration section (and other's feel just as strong) is the way things get done.

You will never see people support a "band aid" fix and it drives some people right up the wall. Ezmobee a fellow mod would just love to "vaporize" band aid threads :eek:

We all work together and no one who has been around will ever suggest a band aid for a repair.... a good example would be when people want to use a sheet of metal over the old transom or use silicone to repair a leak..... just plain old bad ideas.

We have seen amusing repairs that have returned to get it done right.

We accept everyone's input and if you want to see some bickering that never ends.....start comparing epoxy to poly resins or exterior plywood to pressure treated..... basically the forum does a great job of helping people hash out the details and the dilemmas.

Welcome to iboats btbldr2 I think you will like it here ;)
 

ondarvr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Apr 6, 2005
Messages
11,527
Re: builder bashing

I like spirited debates, if you think you have an idea or opinion it can be presented and then picked apart, or should I say critiqued. People can then read the pro's and con's and decide what may work for their situation or need.

I've watched a few and learned many things over the years.
 

Bob_VT

Moderator & Unofficial iBoats Historian
Staff member
Joined
May 19, 2001
Messages
26,064
Re: builder bashing

I've watched a few and learned many things over the years.

LOL the fun part is trying to remember where the great ideas come from :p we all suffer from getting old and forgetful :rolleyes:

SEARCH is the absolute best tool we have :)
 

halas

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
347
Re: builder bashing

I like spirited debates, if you think you have an idea or opinion it can be presented and then picked apart, or should I say critiqued. People can then read the pro's and con's and decide what may work for their situation or need.

I've watched a few and learned many things over the years.

Right on.
 

BobsGlasstream

Commander
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
2,128
Re: builder bashing

LOL the fun part is trying to remember where the great ideas come from :p we all suffer from getting old and forgetful :rolleyes:

SEARCH is the absolute best tool we have :)

Hey, I resemble that remark:p:redface:
Thanks
Bob
 
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