Buying a boat... Water trial from hell

[MarkSee]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

...As we were going back I noticed some black/grey smoke coming out of the exhaust. By the time we made it back the motor was starting to steam.....

I admit I'm not an engine person but isn't black/grey smoke coming out from a gasoline engine bad and not "may be ok"?

And the steam would mean water reached over 212 degrees and coming from somewhere and that's a "may be OK" thing?

This will be interesting to follow how it all comes out.

Mark

 

[rogerwa]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

I would do the diagnostics (comp, etc) get a successful sea trial with no black smoke, and then ask for a good discount. Enough to cover the expected repairs. I would be fair about it and not ask for the boat for $3k when you know it wouldn't cost that much.

Or if uncomfortable just walk away. He can't refuse the deposit return after this happened.

I've run engines hot (not on purpose or willingly), outboard, cars, etc and have not had the trauma that it being warned about here. Although I did have water ingested in a jet ski that didn't manifest itself in seized crank until the following summer.

 

[tazrig]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

Not worth taking the chance. There are many other boats out there. Walk away while you still can. You may have caused internal damage that won't show up right away. Why would you want to start out with a potential problem and a big one at that???

 

[04fxdwgi]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. It's definitely a tough spot for me as I have made the mistake of getting connected with the boat. I've got everything in line and ready to go, just had to have a successful sea trial and survey. The boat appears to be in good condition, comes with the trailer, and the 6.2 MPI engine for 12.2k. Finding another boat with that power level, condition and price locally will be difficult.

I just spoke to a Mercruiser mechanic and he seems to think that all hope isn't lost. Since the boat has fresh water cooling, there was water in it as frantically relaxing eluded too. They recommended doing a full compression inspection and observing how the motor runs. But then again, why would I buy something knowing that it's already tainted...

Keep the comments coming and I'll continue to ponder the situation....

Thanks,

Tom

Tom,

If you really like this boat, then use it to your advantage. When an engine overheats, yes, the fuel system goes nuts and you can possibly get smoke of varying colors from the gas (black smoke), oil (bluish white smoke). If it popped a head gasket and leaked coolant, then the smoke would have been white and you'd smell the coolant. The smoke you saw may have been the rubber / plastic parts in the exhaust stream going South from being torched.

Also, freshwater cooling changes the game alot......
1. Engine did have water / coolant in it. That 6.2 is a fairly recent motor and is pretty tough.
2. 250 deg is very high, but with coolant / anti-freeze in there, she likely survived. Seen many engines go higher and survive.
3. All rubber / plastic parts in exhaust stream likely need to be replaced after being BBQ'd for that length of time.

Use the overheat, extensive testing (and potential repairs) and certain exhaust repairs to push the price way down (12 five for a 23 foot '99 Bayliner seems a bit high to begin with), fix the stuff yourself with the bunch of cash you just saved and have a great boating season. If he won't come way down, then get your deposit back and walk away. There are a ton of really good deals out there right now in this economy. Cash is King.

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

I don't think you can blame the guy for a belt breaking, but I woudn't trust his judgment and mechanical skills if he ran it back to the dock like that.
you' relooking at a 23' bayliner 1999 for $12K in "otherwise" great shape a fit for you. Buy it if you have enough reserve to repower.

Remember you will be a couple weeks in the shop for this repair (all good shops are slammed now) and risk these repairs not working, and being off the water for several weeks while you replace the motor (maybe the repair shop will give you a short warranty--anyway YOU talk to HIS mechanic and get it in writing that he will stand by his work after it's sold).

All work has to be done by a shop, not by him.

My first inclination is to run, but in risks, there are rewards, and you sound like you are going into the risks well informed.

 

[airdvr1227]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

Was the surveyor onboard when this happened?

 

[greenbush future]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

Was the surveyor onboard when this happened?

Yep that would be my first discussion, and depending on what he/she says, and my ability to take a bit of risk, I would see just how desperate this seller is. This could be viewed as a great opp to snag this boat at an outstanding price point. Pay the experts to advise you, you already had some form of an inspection, finish the job!! My guess is you paid for it!!

 

[skydiveD30571]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

If the temp gauge was at 250, that means there was water in the engine, meaning the outdrive pump WAS pushing water into the engine, and as bubba noted the exhaust would've been cooled by that seawater. Engines will tolerate 250? without issue, as long as there's water in them. 250? is the point 15# radiator caps on our cars & trucks relieve pressure.

He said the temp gauge was "pegged" at 250. Meaning the gauge won't go any higher. I'd be willing to bet the actual temperature was quite a bit higher than 250?.

 

[greenbush future]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

He said the temp gauge was "pegged" at 250. Meaning the gauge won't go any higher. I'd be willing to bet the actual temperature was quite a bit higher than 250?.

Not that this would be a basis for making a sound decision, but my V-8 bored 60 over, would run at 220 on normal operating temp situations.

 

[Fasttommyv]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trial from hell

Thanks again guys. One other thing to clarify is that the seller is a dealer. So his actions are not indicative of how the previous owner treated the boat. I think I'll try and get him to pay for a major engine inspection and try to get 2k off the price. Otherwise I'll tell him to send it to auction. Does anyone know how much money a boat like this would get at auction?

 

[LippCJ7]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trial from hell

Tough call, for me this would not be a deal breaker for the right price but then I am mechanically inclined, I would have had the boat towed in instead of taking the chance of killing a great motor as possibly happened, ugh....

Compression and leak down test by a QUALIFIED mechanic that you have good references from, not HIS MECHANIC.

The amount of heat generated by that motor is likely understated by the gauge, I never trust the gauge, I would want to visually inspect the heads and cylinders myself as well as the entire exhaust, in other words I would tear the motor down but that's me, yes the exhaust will do strange things but its only telling you whats happening inside the motor and exhaust so don't take it lightly.

If you want the boat I think I would tell him that you are willing to wait for another sea trial once the boat is repaired and you see the compression and leak down results, the alternator could be why the belt came apart but make no mistake in my opinion what happened after it was clear the boat was overheating is abuse pure and simple, the replacement of that motor can run you what your about to pay for the boat itself if your not doing the work your self, it would have saved everyone so much anxiety if you would have just gotten a tow in and fixed the problem and then continued with the sea trial, how the Owner of the boat handled the situation is telling of how he has operated the boat and that is a concern.

My hope which ever way you go is that you stick around so that we can help you become a better Captain then what you witnessed in this sea trial, in fact I think if I had been on that boat I would have Mutinied and taken control before any of this carnage happened. I'm floored that a Surveyor, a person that is paid as a person of knowledge in boats would have watched this happen, makes me sick.

Ok now I see you added that the seller is a dealer? GREAT NEWS!! Lets talk Compression and leak down test and a 3 year warranty on the motor for the Dealer incompetence!

 

[BF]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trial from hell

With the additional info that this is a dealer selling it, that makes me more leery, not less. Are they a big dealer with their own service dept? If so, they will use their own mechanics and service staff to inspect it and do whatever repairs are necessary. Will they be unbiased and above board?? I doubt that they would send it to auction if you decide not to buy it... They'd just do the minimum repairs required to get it to run, and then sell it "as is" to someone who does not know about the overheat. The one good thing about it being a dealer selling it, is that following whatever repairs they do, you could press them to provide a substantial warranty that otherwise they wouldn't provide for a used boat. If they are confident the engine is good, they might be willing to do that. If they're trying to gloss it over and just get it out the door, they may not. I'm not talking about a 2 week warranty or something, I mean substantial (2 seasons?, a calendar year?)... If they agree to that, be careful about what the warranty actually covers (yes the fine print). I'd be tempted to write out my own statement of understanding of the deal. Stating you witnessed a severe overheat during the trial and the vendor is warrantying the complete engine and all it's components for xx time whether or not the failure can be proven to be caused by the overheat. In the event of a major breakdown where the repair time is longer than 2 weeks, vendor will supply you with a loaner boat until your is fixed... etc... basically so you have something to hold over them if it goes bad. You can also push for goodies like free winterizing and/or storage to go into the deal if they won't drop the price.

We'll see, but given they're a dealer, I'd bet they aren't willing to do much. They might just let you walk if you push for too much and wait for the next person to walk in so they would not have to make any concessions which would cost them $$. Or if this is a small dealer without their own service dept, this is probably all moot.

 

[Slip Away]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trial from hell

Many comments "Tough Call". I can't agree. Not a tough call at all. Lot's of boats out there that are ready to go on a sea trial. The fact that the dealer did not have the boat ready on a sea trial, is a no brainer. Walk away from this one, and continue your search.

Worst thing IMO a buyer can do, is let emotions rule the decision making process when buying a boat.

 

[Slip Away]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trial from hell

yea, I once knew a guy who put a 400HP V8 in a Chevy Vega, I KNEW how it was built, what care was taken in it's construction, and had a good idea of it's history. Did not change my opinion of whether to buy it or not. I passed on it.

It's ultimately up to the buyer to decide, he asked for opinions and got a plethora of them. This boat would not be for me. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Fasttommyv]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trial from hell

The dealership is a very small mom & pop dealership, so i doubt that they would warranty the engine. They are located in Upland CA. The seller also was going to bring the boat to his mechanic to fix whats wrong (the alternator i am guessing). I am expecting to hear from him today about the diagnosis.

I looked up some mercruiser dealers, and called GT Performance Engineering in Upland CA. They seemed to know their stuff when talking on the phone. They echoed many here, by saying there's a chance nothing is wrong, but wont know more until they look into it. Does anyone have any experience with this shop, or recommend another shop to look at the engine? If i do go forward, i will definitely want the dealership to pay for the engine inspection, and accept a significant price concession

On another note, i was browsing Boat Trader yesterday and came across this.

1997 Doral 270SC 27 ft. Cruiser (Power) For Sale: $15,999 -- American Used Boats Inc -- Boat Details

From a little bit of reading, it seems like Dorals are very well built, and high end boats. Could this be a potential match? Its clearly dirty and has probably been neglected for some time, but might be a diamond in the rough.....

Thanks,

Tom

 

[skydiveD30571]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

Re: Buying a boat... Water trail from hell.

And you base that bet on what?

Based on the small chance that the temperature was exactly the same as the upper limit of some gauge. I'm not saying it was 500?, but you cannot claim the temperature stopped rising at sat at 250? just because that's the limit of the gauge...

 

[Fasttommyv]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trial from hell

Its also worth reiterating that i didn't see steam coming out of the blower vents until we reached back to the dock. Would that suggest that a majority of the time, the temperatures stayed relativity in check, as water boils at 212, or false assumption?

 

[airdvr1227]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trial from hell

The dealership is a very small mom & pop dealership, so i doubt that they would warranty the engine. They are located in Upland CA. The seller also was going to bring the boat to his mechanic to fix whats wrong (the alternator i am guessing). I am expecting to hear from him today about the diagnosis.

I looked up some mercruiser dealers, and called GT Performance Engineering in Upland CA. They seemed to know their stuff when talking on the phone. They echoed many here, by saying there's a chance nothing is wrong, but wont know more until they look into it. Does anyone have any experience with this shop, or recommend another shop to look at the engine? If i do go forward, i will definitely want the dealership to pay for the engine inspection, and accept a significant price concession

On another note, i was browsing Boat Trader yesterday and came across this.

1997 Doral 270SC 27 ft. Cruiser (Power) For Sale: $15,999 -- American Used Boats Inc -- Boat Details

From a little bit of reading, it seems like Dorals are very well built, and high end boats. Could this be a potential match? Its clearly dirty and has probably been neglected for some time, but might be a diamond in the rough.....

Thanks,

Tom

That thing looks beat. There are very few diamonds in the rough...First thing I noticed was what looks like oil on the rear seat. Someone's been in the motor. Also, that's quote a bit more boat than the 23' Bayliner. I don't understand the tri-axle trailer. Shouldn't be required for that rig. Will you go to FL to get a boat?

 

[Fasttommyv]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trial from hell

That thing looks beat. There are very few diamonds in the rough...First thing I noticed was what looks like oil on the rear seat. Someone's been in the motor. Also, that's quote a bit more boat than the 23' Bayliner. I don't understand the tri-axle trailer. Shouldn't be required for that rig. Will you go to FL to get a boat?

The location is the biggest concern, as i would most likely buy sight unseen. I would only have a report from a surveyor, and then arrange for shipping to Southern California. The condition is definitley a concern, and i would have to wonder why the seller didnt try and clean it up and charge more for it....

 

[captain zac]

Re: Buying a boat... Water trial from hell

get a price on an over hauled engine
subtract that number from the asking price
If he takes it then fix the belt and what every else
drive it and when the engine quits if it does at all replace it
Harry