Buying a New 'Puter...

Boomyal

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

Originally posted by Bondo:<br />After the 1st sentence, You're Talking Latin to Me.... :( :D
Sorry Bondo, It was really Greek. :D <br />With a 40 GB HD all of my info is not all that important.<br /><br />Don't turn into an ice statue waitin outside for that UPS truck to show up.
 

sloopy

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

Upgrade to 1 gig of ram, 256 is nothing.
 

sloopy

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

Upgrade to 1 gig of ram, 256 is nothing.
 

Bondo

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

Ralph,<br /> Thanx for the link, I've got it Saved to my ebay fav.s... I'll look it over later.... <br />
Don't turn into an ice statue waitin outside for that UPS truck to show up.
I Don't Understand... It's Been 21 Hours,+ It's Still Not Here..!!! :( <br />SLOOPY,<br /> "Upgrade to 1 gig of ram, 256 is nothing." <br />Agreed......<br />I'm Already Looking....<br /><br />Now I've got to Figure out,<br />DDR<br />SDR<br />SODIMM<br />DDR SODIMM<br />RIMM<br />Low Latency DDR<br />SIMM<br />RAMBUS<br />Dual Channel, Platinum Plated......
 

tylerin

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

Bondo be real careful tweaking your puter, remember you were born with a wrench in your hand not those little tiny tools :D
 

Bondo

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

tylerin,<br />You have a Good Memory......<br /><br />My 9/16ths Wrench makes a Perfect Hammer, Working on these Little Bitty Things......
 

sergioy

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

Actually, Dell and Gateway do have proprietary hardware. Not all of it, but there is enough there to throw a monkey wrench in your plan sometimes. They like to build their systems so you have to buy upgrade hardware from them. Either way, it is extremely hard to beat their deals.
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

SDRAM = Synchronous dynamic random access memory. Today, it is the most common type of PC Memory in use. Data transfer to and from the memory is synchronized with the system clock.<br /><br />DDR = Double Data Rate. Means it moves data twice on each clock cycle. The big difference between DDR and SDRAM memory is that DDR reads data on both the rising and falling edges of the clock signal. SDRAM only carries information on the rising edge of a signal. Basically this allows the DDR module to transfer data twice as fast as SDRAM<br /><br />Just about everything in a computer happens on a clock cycle. It is like a heartbeat if you will. Typically, one things happens per clock cycle (the CPU executes one instruction, data is saved or retrieved from memory, etc.) hyperthreading and DDR lets more than one thing happen per clock and therefore is like doubling the speed w/o increasing the heart rate. <br /><br />Low Latency DDR = It is the amount of time you have to wait until data flows. Technically, It is a measure of how much time it takes memory to respond to a column address strobe. Think of it like how long it takes a boat to start moving after you hit the throttle. <br /> <br />RAMBUS is a revolutionary step from SDRAM. It also reads data on both the rising and falling edges of the clock signal, as DDR does. Rambus DRAM modules are known as RIMM modules (Rambus inline memory modules). RAMBUS is not compatible with SDRAM and vica versa. A mother board is designed to use one or the other.<br /><br />SIMM = Single in-line memory module. Like a tiny circuit board stick if you will. A lot of ICs are DIPs, dual in-line packages and have "legs" on both sides of the package. Memory used to be all DIPs but many moons ago the moved to the SIMM for ease of installation.<br /><br />SODIMM is A small outline dual inline memory module and is used in laptops.<br /><br />PS - if there is anything proprietary in a Dell or Gateway I have never found it and I have repaired and upgraded hundreds of them over the years. I am sure the techs at both companies are instructed to tell people they must use OEM parts but it just isn't the case. For reasons of economy, both use standard open industry components.
 

Bondo

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

OK Ralph, <br />Things are Becoming Clearer...... :) <br /><br />This Dell is listed as having,<br />DDR 333mhz NON-ECC SDRAM<br /><br />I got the DDR + the SDRAM ideas....<br />seems this Should be a Good Thing.... Most Common type of memory, running at a Doubled rate....<br /><br />I'm Guessing the 333mhz is the eletrical value that Can't be Mixed with memory of a Different Value ..????? Yes - No ?????<br /><br />What's the NON-ECC refer too ???<br /><br />What memory sticks will NOT work with My system ????<br />I'm Guessing that these are NOT what I want..<br />SIMM = Outdated...<br />SODIMM = Laptops...<br />RAMBUS = Incompatable...<br /><br />Another Difference I see listed in my catalog....<br />PC133<br />PC2100<br />PC2700<br />PC3200<br />Does this have anything to do with the # of pins,+ the size/shape of the Slot/Scocket.. I see 168 pins for the PC133 for my present computer...<br />And the 184 pins with the DDR, PC2100 2700,+ 3200<br /><br />When I go over to the Hot Rod 'Puter parts page, I find memory listed at 333mhz, like the one I'm getting......<br />Then there's 400mhz, 433mhz, 466mhz,+ 500mhz.....<br />Can This Value be mixed or matched in My new 'puter ??????<br /><br />I Never thought I'd go to a Boating Forum to take a course in Computer Architecture...........
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

I'm Guessing the 333mhz is the eletrical value that Can't be Mixed with memory of a Different Value ..????? Yes - No ?????
The 333MHz is the clock speed of the memory (how fast the clock can be that runs the memory). The bigger the number the faster the memory. You can't use anything slower.<br /><br />What ever you do, don't buy memory from anybody but Crucial (www.crucial.com), Dell and maybe Kingston. Memory from other sources may be counterfeit and/or remarked and appear to work but can cause intermittent, unpredictable failure. Independent tests show (by ZDLabs I think) something like 80% of the memory on the market is NFG. The best way to buy additional memory is to go to the Crucial web site and walk through the selector or buy it from Dell.<br /><br />Let me say this about memory though. Before you buy any, use your computer and see if you need it. Additional memory is like having a 750cfm carb on a Chevy 350, unnecessary and gratuitous unless you actually need it for server applications, gaming, video editing, have many applications running simultaneously, etc.<br /><br />Right now I am on a Dell 8250 (high end Dell) with 512MB of RAMBUS memory. 60% of my memory is unused. with lots of aps and windows open.<br /><br />And for those running Win ME or below, anything more than 128MB will cause your system to run slower. Yup, slower. The OS can't handle the overhead of the additional memory management. That is not opinion but the results of independent lab tests conducted by ZDLabs.<br /><br />
What's the NON-ECC refer too
ECC is error correcting code. That is, if data in memory gets corrupted ECC can fix it automatically. ECC is usually reserved for very high-end, mission critical servers where any failure or corruption is not an option. Most PCs do not use or support ECC memory.
 

Ryoken

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

some links pertaining to Dell proprietary parts...<br /><br /> http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=3243 <br /><br /> http://165.193.123.52/articles/upgrade3_01_01.asp <br /><br /> http://www.gamersdepot.com/hardware/desktops/dell/xps2/001.htm PSU<br /><br /> http://forums.devshed.com/archive/26/2003/10/1/88456 general proprietary comments<br /><br /> http://forums.devhardware.com/archive/21/2003/9/3/8603 same<br /><br /> http://jswe.com/advantages.htm <br /><br />once again, this is not a Dell bash. for alot of folks it's a good choice. although a local mom and pop outfit would probably do you better...
 

Pikey2574

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

From experience I can tell you that I bought a dell about a 1.5 years ago and it is still running like a dream.. With that said my parents are still running their old Dell from 1998-1999 era (though it sure isn’t that fastest thing). With both these computer we have had a couple of minor problems and Dell has always helped us out with it no questions asked. I would definitely recommend Dell for most people.<br /><br />Later<br /><br />Kevin
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

This is the only thing out of all those links that may have any consequence at all. And the consequence would only be if you were swapping out the whole MB which IMHO is no longer even a practical consideration these days from a monetary point of view:<br />
says that although these use what seems to be a standard ATX connector, the pinouts are quite different.
These days, when you are upgrading a computer, you are talking about memory, HDD and video (usually in that order) and those components are industry standard.<br /><br />Here is also backup from that same article about memory quality:<br /><br />
And we all know, for example, that memory for Compaq and other machines is gazillions of times cheaper than when you buy approved kit from firms like Kingston Technology.
Which is why I have said here in the past that Gateway and Compaqs have issues... cheap memory is a major issue in computer instability<br /><br />I can tell you I have a Master's degree in Computer Engineering and designed a RISC processor for my thesis before most of the world even knew what they were. I don't even build my own boxes any more. Every time I tell people to avoid the Mom and pops and they ignore my advice, they always live to regret it. Why? because in order to even remotely compete, they have to use questionable components handled in questionable ways. They can't support you when you have a problem and they aren't going to fix it as much as 3 years later even if they are still in business.<br /><br />Dell did not come to dominate this industry by making unreliable or poorly performing PCs. Just go to PC Magazine and count the number of Editor's choice awards they have won and compare the performance results from ZDLabs.<br /><br />I understand the thrill of building your own box. If you are a techie and get enjoyment from it, go for it. But, for the vast majority of people it is a bad, suboptimal choice. The most important hing for 99.9% of computer users is cost, reliability, service & support, simplicity and performance usually in that order.
 

Paul Moir

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

Every time I tell people to avoid the Mom and pops and they ignore my advice, they always live to regret it. Why? because in order to even remotely compete, they have to use questionable components handled in questionable ways
I've got to take issue with that. True, there are some real fly by night operations out there. Sometimes I think it may be more than half of them, but others are golden. Any store that has outlived at least one warranty cycle knows which are the good parts and which are the cheap ones since you can't survive selling the cheap ones. The shipping on the RMAs alone kills your profit. Not to mention the extra work, the irate (lost) customers, etc. If you look into how parts are advertised to these companies, you'll see they push the reliability of their parts. Failure rate during the warranty period is the most important number. <br />Like anything else, buy from those you can trust. <br /><br />
...I have a Master's degree in Computer Engineering and designed a RISC processor...
You mean a half baked one? :) <br />- Sorry I couldn't resist
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

There are always exceptions. I don't even know any that are still around as real businesses and I am in one of the tech capitals of the world - most these days are guys in their basements... PCs have become a commodity like TVs but worse because of the speed of the tech improvements. They are now virtually disposable. You're better off buying a new machine every couple of years and taking advantage of the improvements.<br /><br />If you think RMAs kill a little local builder working off razor thin margins think what they would do to a company like Dell which provide 7/24 support and even on site repair.<br /><br />SUN, HP & DEC make a good living off RISC processors :D For the record, many moons ago studies showed that most computers actually use a small subset off all the instructions built into the processor. So, the idea was build processors that focused on executing just those instructions and do it as fast as possible - the holy grail was one instruction per clock...
 

Ryoken

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

swapping out the whole MB which IMHO is no longer even a practical
so upgrading mobo's isn't a cost effective upgrade? so when your mobo is obselete and you have to go buy a whole complete tower it's more cost effective than replacing a mobo and cpu? either way it's still proprietary.. believe me, i hear people all over the net complain about it..<br /><br />
Which is why I have said here in the past that Gateway and Compaqs have issues... cheap memory is a major issue in computer instability<br />
from my understanding all the major manufacturers buy hardware based on price, not brand.. what brand HDD is in that unit of yours? what manufacturer of that ATI card is in your machine? btw, your saying Corsair is fake or poor quality memory?<br /><br />
tell people to avoid the Mom and pops and they ignore my advice, they always live to regret it
so a local 10, 15 yr old store is a bad place to get a comp? in case, you hadn't read those reseller ratings, Dell isn't perfect on the customer service end of things.. and to some, having a local place to bring the tower to when your having issues is a plus...<br /><br />
Dell did not come to dominate this industry by making unreliable or poorly performing PCs
never said that. matter of fact, i made it a point to say this wasn't a bash.. i was very happy with my Gateways performance, as i'm sure many Dell owners are. i was just pointing out possible upgrade issues to him...<br /><br />
The most important hing for 99.9% of computer users is cost, reliability, service & support, simplicity and performance usually in that order
well, if cost is the consideration, everyone would build their own box. because i guarantee that high end Dell you run could be built for at least a couple hundred less if not more thru Newegg and be fully upgradable.<br /><br />i'm not saying Dell doesn't make a good machine or that it isn't the right choice for many people, i'm just saying you can build a better machine for less if your not afraid to try. my machine has been running flawless for a year now and it'll be far easier and cheaper for me to go to a 64 bit proc and board than a Dell owner...
 

Ralph 123

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

so upgrading mobo's isn't a cost effective upgrade?
No, not in my opinion. You have to buy a new MB, Memory and CPU. And, you are stuck with an old power supply, fans, etc. Not when you can buy a brand new box so cheap these days. Look at the box Bondo bought for less than $500 delivered. And no bootlegging the OS. No old box. No questionable parts. 7/24 support. Full 1 year warranty. No labor. Latest memory and processor.<br /><br />
from my understanding all the major manufacturers buy hardware based on price, not brand
Not the big guys it is brand = reliability and performance which is more important to them than the cost per unit. They buy so many the determine the price. You think Intel or Maxtor cares about anybody but Dell, Gateway, IBM and HP? <br /><br />Comapnies like Dell want to sell you a box and not hear from you again until you are ready for a new one. They don't want any support calls and they don't want any reapir calls. They way they prevent them is by building them to be reliable to begin with and that is done by using high quality components.<br /><br />
your saying Corsair is fake or poor quality memory?<br />
Read your own article about memory issues and then go read the ZDLabs reports. Small guys work on razor thin margins. Part remarking happens all the time. Clock speeds get upped, manufacturer gets changed etc., etc. It was such a big issue for Intel that they started to put internal serial numbers in the CPUs.<br /><br />
so a local 10, 15 yr old store is a bad place to get a comp?
It depends. At least they have a track record. But, I bet their money is made on the service/repair side than on building and selling boxes. If building boxes were economical, most large buyers would build their own and they don't.<br /><br />
well, if cost is the consideration, everyone would build their own box. because i guarantee that high end Dell you run could be built for at least a couple hundred less if not more thru Newegg and be fully upgradable.<br />
Nope, not unless I was willing to take some chances on the parts. And, anything worth upgrading on this box is easily upgradable. Upgrading these days is just not ecenomical for the most part. And, when you do, you assume all the risk. Wait till you're mucking around some day, forget to hook up your CPU fan and fry the CPU or have some other minor brain fart... happens all the time.<br /><br />
you hadn't read those reseller ratings
Sorry but who do you think are putting those comments up there huh? The only seller ratings I give any weight to what so ever are those in places like PCMAG. Independent surveys done by reputable organizations.<br /><br />Like I said, I've been in this industry since the early 80s. I've been there and done that more times than you can possibly imagine. If you like building your own box or buying from a local guy who does a good job for you then more power to you. However, for the vast majority of the world is is not the best solution. If it were, companies like Dell would not rank among the Fortune 500.<br /><br />Just a few months ago I had a friends sister go with a local builder. I warned her and warned her... she did not listen.... she begged me to come up and get the darn thing squared away after the builder cound't get everyhting working, which I did but this sort of crap happens all the time/<br /><br />I know there is a hardcore army of techies and hacks that hate to buy a box, heck I was one of them but those days IMHO are just about, if not toally, over. People used to be the same way about radios and then TVs. Sooner or later the laws of economics take over...
 

ebbtide176

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

ryoken, any info is greatly needed! thanx<br /><br />you might be in a tiny majority tho, since things with pc's are changing all the time.<br /><br />i've only been observing dell coming into the forefront of common apps for maybe 3yrs. i haven't seen very many complaints. its sad but a fact that its easier nowadays to just buy a full system than build it yourself. i don't have that asked of me anymore, and its nice. :D i'm prejudiced tho, i'd rather let the common pc be dependable and be a grunt(info tech help) than work on them in afterhours for low pay ;)
 

roscoe

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Re: Buying a New 'Puter...

Hey Ralph, I bought a box 2 years ago, with 512Mb of PC2700 DDR-333.<br /><br />It came with all WinXP (Home Ed DSP) compatable components, and WinXP drivers, but had difficulty getting XP to work. I resorted to installing WinME, and everything works fine. <br /><br />Over the last year, me, my 2 nephews-both are puter whizzes and working on their masters in computer something, and a friend of mine, have all spent countless hours trying to get XP to run on this machine. It just won't work. <br /><br />I had given up on XP so completely, that I mailed the cd to someone that wanted it. But now you say that WinME is running slower because I have too much ram. <br /><br />The only time I know I had problems, is when it got loaded up with spyware. And after downloading the IE6 update that gave many people trouble.<br /><br />But there you go, telling me I could run faster.<br />Making me feel inadequate.<br /><br />I figure my next system will be a Mac, because I have a problem giving any more $ to Microsoft.<br /><br />So what should I do with this thing?<br />Take some RAM out of it?<br /><br />_________________________________________________<br />Yep, you can get a lot of computer for a little money right now.<br /> $549<br /><br />• RaidMax Scorpio-868 Mid-Tower Case (available in 5 different colors) <br />• AMD Athlon XP 2500+ CPU <br />• nForce-2 8x AGP Main Board with Sound / USB2.0 / 10/100 LAN <br />• 512MB DDR400 PC3200 Memory<br />• 80GB 7200 RPM ATA-100 HDD<br />•128MB nVidia GeForce FX 5200 OR 128MB ATI Radeon 9200 8x AGP Video<br />• 52x24x52 CD-RW<br />• UPGRADE TO NEC Dual format DVD±RW --$90<br />• 5.1 Channel 3D Premium Surround Sound<br />• 480 Watts PMPO Subwoofer Speakers<br />• 10/100 Network LAN<br />• FREE 6-in-1 Media Card Reader<br />• FREE One Year iCare Deluxe OnSite Service
 
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