carb fuel circuit question

BobList

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I have a 125 with the single screw Tillotson carbs. Does full throttle operation use, or rely on the mixture setting screw whatsoever?, I mean, let's say you are too lean at idle. When the butterflies open, does this bypass completely the mixture screw circuit?, Likewise, if I decided to run richer than normal at idle and slow throttle, would full throttle use just the static metered jet, and be proper mixture?
When the throttle is say, halfway, and the butterflies are open halfway, is the idle circuit now null and void, or still being utilized as a gradual transition to the big jets?

Bob
 

fucawi

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Re: carb fuel circuit question

now if I answer that I shall be in big trouble ..in my opinion yes ..but frank will be along soon to give you his opinion
 

BobList

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Re: carb fuel circuit question

ha hah... well, let's hear what you both have to say...
 

erosenwinkel

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Re: carb fuel circuit question

I was fortunate enough to have a front row seat for the last show also. Awesome! Its the little things in life that make my day.
 

BobList

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Re: carb fuel circuit question

these guys have miles of experience more than I do about 2 stroke outboards..

I am an ASE Master automotive tech, 32 years in the biz. One of the reasons I am successful at diagnosis and repair is the ability NOT to know everything immediately, but KNOW WHERE TO FIND THE INFORMATION on the problem! Then, experience takes over in the decision making process on what to do... I never, ever jump to a conclusion without checking what else could be wrong.. matter of fact, 95% of diagnosis is eliminating what the problem ISN"T!!
2 strokes turned me into a beginner as far as knowledge.. putting wrenches on them is easy!! I've learned that even an apprentice might have a good answer to a problem, he may have seen this problem once, and me, never.
I really don't know for sure if the circuits overlap.. when I was doing car carbs, I was 17, and just starting out..( new dummy) fuel injection, turbocharging and all that is my thing. 2 strokes are fascinating in their simplicity, yet nothing is controlled by a computer..hence, they are at the same time complicated in that computer is the mechanic's brain... hope it has the latest software.. heh heh
If there are 2 opinions by 2 good mechanics.. it's up to me to decipher who to follow...LOTS of times, BOTH are correct, it's just terminology.. ( glass half full, no, it's half empty).. :^)

Bob List

Bob
 

my1stboat1

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Re: carb fuel circuit question

HEY Bob .. also a ASE master tech. Ford master tech and diesal cert tech.... I couldnt have said what you said ANY BETTER... I dont have 32 years in the buisness as im only 31 lol.. But ive got 10 in with ford motor company and 3 with independant repair... Im shocked at the things that Still amaze me so I could only imagine the things youve seen
 

foodfisher

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Re: carb fuel circuit question

Back to orig. ? As I remember, if the idle setting is lean at idle, the mix will be lean at WOT. Not good. Seems to me the idle jetting is always active. Humble apprentice
 

steveclv

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May 12, 2010
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Re: carb fuel circuit question

Well the answer is yes and no - the idle mixture circuit remains active during the entire zero to WOT operation however the effect of the idle circuit compared to the main jet is pretty small - so a rich mixture at idle isn't going to affect the stoichiometric ratio too much.

More complex carbs, for example those used on jetskis have a more complicated arrangement such that the idle circuit has no effect after 1/4 throttle.
 

BobList

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Re: carb fuel circuit question

yeah, the idle circuit becoming less of a player as the plates open makes sense.. less manifold vacuum for them to work.. I'm wondering maybe there's a point, where at part throttle, both circuits should be contributing, say 50% each. If the idle circuit is too lean, it may not be putting out it's fair share of fuel at that particular point, causing a stumble, or flat spot...which could delay a full throttle burst somewhat. But on the other hand, a holeshot from dead stop on a well tuned engine doesn't have that problem, as far as I know.
I actually do not know what a 125 should behave like.. I had to watch a few youtube vids of guys running them.. 2 vids I saw the engines were as smooth on accel as a car, the other 2 were more like mine.. lil bit of stumble and a small cough or two while accelerating, then up to speed.
I gotta research some more... what a perfect running 2 stroke idles like, feels like, and sounds like...?


Bob
 

Frank Acampora

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Re: carb fuel circuit question

Well, Bob: If you want to invest some money in your 125, set one carb to only 1/2 turn out--lean. See how long the engine runs at full throttle before you need to replace at least one piston. My guess would be 15 to 30 seconds. Then you can drive up to me and I'll rebuild it.

This is why I always recommend putting a filter AFTER the pump and BEFORE the carbs: Pump diaphragms can shed particles and pump valves can shed brass pieces which will lodge in (usually) one carb inlet needle. the carb goes lean and the pistons serviced by that one are destroyed.

Same thing will happen if you set the low speed mix needle too lean. Take it from me: I learned the hard way when I was still wet behind the ears. Low speed circuit on these carbs is always at manifold vacuum and while they don't contribute as much fuel as the venturi does at full throttle, they still do contribute. Enough so that loss of this fuel will cause lean running and damage. Add to that the fact that because of design, one cylinder of a pair serviced by a carb runs just a bit leaner and you get one lean cylinder and one very lean cylinder. Guess which one will be damaged first.

Look at your carbs next time you take them off to clean them. Under the welsh plug and behind the venturi is (usually) three metered holes. The needle controls fuel to these holes and at idle only, the other two holes act as an air bleed because they are on the other side of the butterfly plate. (some carbs will have only one large hole--It is the engineer's design) This is the so called low speed circuit because its function is to supply fuel when there is not enough air flowing through the venturi to draw fuel up the large brass dip tube and atomize it. At off idle, as the butterfly opens, the other two metered holes are exposed to manifold vacuum sequentially and deliver the extra fuel required by the engine. They are metered--that is a specific size-- to match carb design and engine size. HOWEVER, because of their location, after about 1/4 throttle, all three are always at manifold vacuum and thus always delivering fuel.

On a hole shot, when you bang open the throttle, acceleration should be smooth. It is possible to set the needles too rich and the engine will stumble because of too much fuel, then clear itself out and pick up. Conversly, if set too lean, the engine will "sag" until RPM rises enough for the venturis to deliver, the engine will again recover and accelerate. Set properly, the low speed circuit will deliver enough fuel for the engine to accelerate until the venturis deliver fuel. Acceleration will be smooth with no hesitation or stumbling. This applies to any force engine, not just the 125.

Since the limiting factor in any internal combustion engine is the amount of air it can take in it, is always preferable to have a slightly rich mix so all available oxygen is "burned." Thus, when the engine stumbles due to a rich mix and then clears itself out, it is because the rich mix will not affect power too greatly. Indeed, the loss of power from a slightly rich mix is less than the loss due to a lean mix. In the old days, Automobile carbs had vacuum activated needles that opened under lowered vacuum of full throttle and richened the mix for full throttle operation while timing was retarded a couple of degrees. This had the effect of preventing damage at the maximum horsepower production at full throttle.
 

BobList

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Re: carb fuel circuit question

Good post, Frank... I knew you'd respond .....

No way I'm going too lean on purpose!! I learned my lesson! Actually, my motor seems to run better with the screws about 1 3/4 turns out, maybe just a bit more. I think I'll make it obviously too rich, do a few accel tests, and turn them back in slightly to feel the difference... So I know what it feels like.
I'd much rather shoot unburned fuel out of my exhaust than melted aluminum!!

BTW, in your experience, have you found that one carb is set just a tad bit richer than the other to get optimum performance?.. not that mine are like that, I'm just curious....

Bob List
 

fucawi

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Re: carb fuel circuit question

I like Stevclv spot on and frank did the post word perfect ..no technical glitches ( sorry guys )
BUT manifold vacuum at idle about 18 in HG ( which pulls on the idle circuit ) and 2 or 3 in Hg at WOT so from that judge how much fuel is pulled on the low speed circuit at WOT.
But dont go too over rich at idle ..carbon up the pistons and then get pre igniton bad bad bad ..

Great tip on the fuel filter pump to carb
 
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