Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

[PhatboyC]

The results doesn't surprise me. Anyone wondering if they should pony up to go 4 strokes EFI here is some satisfaction survey results performed by JDM.


"74% of new boat buyers answering the lengthy survey said that they experienced problems with their new boats, and topping the list of aggravations were carbureted engines. In the category of small runabouts, 80% of the boats have this 19th century technology ? and according to J. D. Power 40% of the problems small runabouts have are related to the carburetor."

"Outboard DI two-stroke segment

Mercury leads in the outboard DI two-stroke segment for a third consecutive year, with slight improvements in engine quality since the 2007 study. Evinrude closely follows Mercury in the segment. Transmission issues and stalling are the most frequently reported problems within the outboard DI two-stroke segment. However, two owner-reported problems, major engine failure and engine runs rough, have the most negative impact on overall satisfaction. Only 4 percent of owners experience either of these two problems.

Mercury 892

Evinrude 890

Outboard DI Two-Stroke Segment Average 889

Yamaha 882


Outboard EFI four-stroke segment

Yamaha ranks highest in the outboard EFI four-stroke segment, performing particularly well in engine reliability. Yamaha is followed closely by Honda and Suzuki, respectively.

Among all outboard technologies, four-stroke EFI engines have a particularly low number of reported problems (56 PP100). Among those owners who experience problems, those involving engine transmission are the most frequently reported.

Yamaha 898

Honda 895

Suzuki 893

Outboard EFI Four-Stroke Segment Average 888

Mercury 872


Sterndrive EFI segment

Volvo Penta ranks highest in the sterndrive EFI segment, performing particularly well in the engine?s ability to accelerate rapidly, fuel economy and lack of exhaust fumes. MerCruiser closely follows Volvo Penta, receiving particularly high ratings from owners for engine reliability.

More than 57 percent of EFI owners indicate that their new engine is problem-free, while only 9 percent of owners report having three problems or more. The two most frequently reported problems by EFI sterndrive owners are engine transmission feels/sounds rough when shifting and issues with the engine tilt/trim.

Volvo Penta 856

Sterndrive EFI Segment Average 853

MerCruiser 851


Inboard EFI segment

For a third consecutive year, Pleasurecraft Engine Group (PCM) ranks highest in the inboard EFI four-stroke engine segment, performing particularly well in engine reliability. PCM is followed in the segment by Marine Power.

While inboard EFI engines have the highest quality (49 PP100) and satisfaction ratings of all four engine segments, fuel economy continues to be a major weakness for the engine type.

?Fuel economy is clearly the Achilles? heel of inboard EFI engines when you compare segment scores to those of the other engine categories,? said Todd Markusic, senior director of the powersports practice at J.D. Power and Associates. ?Despite this shortcoming, inboard EFI engines have remarkable quality and earn extremely high satisfaction scores. Those brands that can find a way to improve the fuel economy of their engines would clearly have a major competitive advantage.?

PCM 913

Marine Power 887

EFI Inboard Segment Average 886

Indmar 879"

 

[QC]

Re: Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

Makes sense. Throw out the transmission stuff. The PCM fuel economy complaint is about inboards, not engines . . . The Volvo scored high in acceleration due to the percent of Duoprop vs. single and the "shifting smoothness" thing is Alphas. I wish these guys knew how to sort these results to actually tell us something accurate . . .

 

[walleyehed]

Re: Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

Good point and well-said, QC.
Thanks for the info phatboyC.

I do have to add though....all I have owned in outboards has been carbed....in the last 3 years, I've towed just as many EFI/DFI powered vessels back to the ramp as I have carbed units....most of the carbed units I've been able to pin-point the problem and either fix or not fix...the EFI 4's and the DFI 2's are another story...

 

[tommays]

Re: Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

Why even bring up facts like mercury controling the most builders BUT yamaha seems to be catching up on that with there 4s deals on so many boats now

Tommays

 

[External Combustion]

Re: Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

One of the first things that post grad students learn is that how the question is posed determines the outcome to the survey. Ask the question the right way and you prove your point.

Unless I can read a survey I always suspect the conclusions.

"Do you still use 19 century technology to transmit engine power from your boat?"

Don't you think it is the responsibility of the manufacturers to improve that inefficient technology?"

So what are you going to replace the propellor with?

 

[steelespike]

Re: Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

"19 century technology"I guess you could say carbs go back to the late 1800s
but Not really of much control of engine speed more to just get fuel into the motor.If you think about it the engines both 2 stroke and 4 stroke go back to the 1800s.Over head valves and overhead cams at least back to the first decade of the 1900s.

 

[steelespike]

Re: Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

74% of boat owners report problems.WOW!40% Small outboard carb problems. Is this the technology or the product design.We had 5 outboards from 18 to 50hp 61 to 88 Evinrude and Merc. 88 50 Evinrude did 16 years with no carb probs.others were sold/traded at about 7 years age no carb problems.never any initial carb problems.Sure it's a tiny percentage of production but makes me wonder if the older motors were better designed
or assembled.
If I read it right the EFI 4 strokes are the leaders in least reported problems;yet 56 out of 100 report problems.To me that is unacceptable for any technology. Also if I read right the problems are with basic technology
that has been in production for over 50 years,this should either be perfected or a better system in production.
It appears to me if compared to automotive quality with the highest quality brands/models of each; marine quality is in the toilet.Not even in the same ball park.

 

[QC]

Re: Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

But a "problem" could be a bad ignition switch . . . I agree with External Combustion, without the survey it is meaningless . . .

 

[PhatboyC]

Re: Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

It appears to me if compared to automotive quality with the highest quality brands/models of each; marine quality is in the toilet.Not even in the same ball park.

They will never compare. For the amount of boat sold versus cars in the world it's normal for the boat industry to be 10 years behind.

 

[QC]

Re: Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

They will never compare. For the amount of boat sold versus cars in the world it's normal for the boat industry to be 10 years behind.

Yeah and divide that between 7,278 independent boatbuilders that are in and out of business . . .

 

[180shabah]

Re: Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

But a "problem" could be a bad ignition switch . . . I agree with External Combustion, without the survey it is meaningless . . .

Or it could be as simple as hard starting because they don't know how(or why) to use the choke.

There is no defect, but a service ticket was created, and thus a problem is logged.

 

[steelespike]

Re: Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

They will never compare. For the amount of boat sold versus cars in the world it's normal for the boat industry to be 10 years behind.

It would seem to me the boating industry would be ahead as they have fewer
less complicated products and more time to fine tune developement.For instance the Outboard and I/O have esentially the same transmission basically unchanged since the 50s.While effective it could only be described as primative.The Mercruiser gearcase is basically unchanged since what the late 60s.Still a sliding clutch dog.Marine drive trains are dependent on prop developement.I think the Torque shift prop is an indication that some sort of shifting transmission/prop could produce amazing performance.It just needs developement and refinement.etc. etc.But a little company doesn't have the
the resources to complete developement.
I can't be sure but I believe primative direct reversing variable pitch props were available in the early 1900s.

 

[QC]

Re: Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

^^^^^^ Marine applications scream for a CVT. Seems backwards to some, but they are simple, electronic, and provide 100% rated horsepower at any propeller speed. Eliminates pitch discussion except out at the edges.

The reason that Marine pleasurecraft development has been slow is regulation, or better said, a lack of regulation. Without regulatory pressure and serious competition, there is very little reason to spend oodles on development. I wish it wasn't so, and if you look at OBs there has been some serious development, because it was threatened by both.

 

[steelespike]

Re: Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

^^^^^^ Marine applications scream for a CVT. Seems backwards to some, but they are simple, electronic, and provide 100% rated horsepower at any propeller speed. Eliminates pitch discussion except out at the edges.

The reason that Marine pleasurecraft development has been slow is regulation, or better said, a lack of regulation. Without regulatory pressure and serious competition, there is very little reason to spend oodles on development. I wish it wasn't so, and if you look at OBs there has been some serious development, because it was threatened by both.

I guess regulation pressure is pretty obvious.Powerheads have developed into
21century technology and are consistantly connected to primative mid century technology.
If you think about it the marine industry probably out of necessity is like the
auto industry in the early 1900s assembling components mostly from outside suppliers."assembled cars"Unfortunately the assembled cars pretty much dissapeared.There are still assembled cars around but most come and go
with little effect.
It appears the major Marine players are absorbing lots of assemblers
liqidating some keeping others.It appears mostly to corner the market not
improve the developement of their product.
It appears the Marine industry is still shaking out after all these years.
The auto industry was done for all intentions in the late 40s.With Nash/Hudson becoming AMC in the 50s and surviving into the 70s Jeep the only surviving name from the independents.Bicycles did it in the late 19th and early 20th century,Thousands of builders coming and going.
Autos the first half of the 20th century,Outboards 20s30s and 40s,
Snomobiles etc. etc.

 

[steelespike]

Re: Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

Had to mention just discovered by accident that the outboard transmission
basic design is a little older than we figure.
A Builder archetect named Brunoleski in 1420 designed a transmission for a giant oxen driven hoist so it could be reversed without rotating the oxen.It loosely resembles a verticles outboard transmission.

 

[180shabah]

Re: Carb vs EFI / 2 Stroke vs 4 Strokes - 08 JDM Study Is Out

^^^^^^ Marine applications scream for a CVT.

I'll second that.