Carbs/Float???

[Xandre]

Re: Carbs/Float???

Carbs are not hard. Im a handy man and was intimidated at first but these are nothing like an auto carb, much simpler. Take a good digi cam and take pics of the linkages if worried about where things go. Print them out at home as refferences when you get back. Buy the kits and floats. Even if you buy aftermarket kits you can buy the float seperate, its not like OE is the only maker of them. You can do it take you time and pay attention to what you do. Take the first apart slowly and lay everything out and then replace those parts with new ones from the kit. If you have bulk cleaner its best to soak it. Even soaking in gas will help some. Then blow everything out with compressed air. I have done so many Johson single float carbs i could do them with my eyes closed. Im sure there is a video on Youtube, i even think i have seen one linked to on here somewhere.

Most will tell you to get a manual, they are a huge help you can get them on ebay keep checking, but there not essential for carbs as there so easy.

NO you fooling with the lean/rich knobs has nothing to do with your problem. Once you understand how these simple carbs work it will make sense. There just controlling a needle vavle for AIR flow either at idle or WOT. These controls have nothing to do with the float or fload postion or the needle valve in the fuel inlet. Be very leary of that Mechanic, he may have misunderstood you but why lie? I would hope he could fix it, its just kind of odd?

I had a problem restarting after sitting for say 30 mins it was due to flooding, i had a paint chip holding a needle valve open causing it to flood, running no trouble unless you throttled down to fast and you would cut out from overfueling.

You can do this. Dont worry about dropping stuff over the carbs are in the front and basically almost hang over the boat. The model number is on the bracket where the motor bolts to the transom. Its a metal serial number tag like school districts use for property. On newer motors say 80s on there are freeze plugs located somewhere on the heads. They also have the model numbers of the engine on them. There about the size of a quater and made of AL, at least thats the color they are.

Great pep talk! I'm much more inclined to try this knowing I don 't really need to take the boat out of the water to get the carb rebuild done.

To remove the carb it looks to me like I need to do 4 things?

1. Disconnect throttle linkage
2. Disconnect Fuel line
4. Disconnect ignition
4. Remove 2-4 screws

What am I missing? What do I have wrong?

Also attached is what I think is my model number...yes/no? 304031

Had her running very well for a while today then a die out and wait...start again an hour later and no problem. I think seafoam is keeping things alive but just enough to take short conservative rides. The boat is running so much faster than it has for years when it does get going. Loving seafoam as a temp fix.

Thanks for your help everyone!

 

[Xandre]

Re: Carbs/Float???

If motor is electric start, you'll probably have to loosen or possibly remove the starter to get to the starboard bolt which holds the carb on. Then remove the port side bolt, the linkage and gas line and the carb comes right off. I've done it many times while the boat was in the water. Once off, tear into the carb on a workbench. Clean out all the passages real good, remove the welch plug on the top of the carb and clean the idle circuit below the plug. I use a twistie tie wire to clean out the small orifices. Use lots of spray carb cleaner and blow everything out thoroughly. Install the new carb kit and put the carb back together. You can check to make sure the float isn't sticking by blowing into the fuel inlet. With the carb upright, air should flow through, with it upside down, no air should flow.

This helps! I need this kind of step by step instruction, thank you!

I've been searching everywhere for my service manual and can't find it. I'm thinking I'm really gonna need a labeled diagram to get this done.

 

[clemsonfor]

Re: Carbs/Float???

You dont need to disconnect the ignition. Maybe your talking about just unhooking the negative battery lead? Not necessary but will keep someone from turning the key while carbs are off. But other than the ignition part your correct. Depending on models its sometimes easyier to leave a linage on a certain carb or just take them off at the carb not sure on yours. That number could be a model # but also looks like an OMC part number? The number your looking for is something like J60CIAH or something, i think this is pretty close to what it is on my 60 HP the HP will be in the number to tell you HP and the second and third to the last numbers tell you the year, through a corresponding letter for 1-9 to make up the production year, its this way on all post 1970 motors i beleive. The Plate will have model and serrial number listed on it.

Heres a Carb trick, not sure if you know it or not but it helps to know it for all things even lawnmowers and presserwashers as well as boat and old auto carbs. If your not getting fuel The needle valve may be stuck in its seat. They have rubber tips and can fues togeather so fuel cant flow in. Take a scredriver or any object you have and tap the bowl not hard to bust it but not soft like your hitting your kid on the head either give it a few swift smacks on the carb body or the bowl on the bottom. This will free a stuck float of needle most times. I would do this when you cut out and cant restart on each bowl and then prime the ball and try to start immediatly (if it worked you will feel fuel flow through the ball.).

Another thing i really would like to see you do before you tear them off is to get some fuel in a spray bottle get gas/oil mix or you can really use straight seafoam, its got lube properties in it but mix is the best. Anyway take your bottle with you and when you cutout i want you to remove the carb covers and the hood spray some in as someone is cranking the motor. If you have no assistant you can spray a good 2 sprays in each carb then hurry to the key and try and start it. What this will tell you is if you are getting spark or fuel (its easier to do this on the water than test for a spark on the water) or both. If you fire up this way you know you have a spark but no fuel, why because you just cranked on the fuel you put into the motor and carbs are where you need to look. If you do this and it does nothing you need to look deeper. You either have spark and fuel already with nothing happening (maybe flooded out) OR you have no spark which you will then need to look into.

I had an issue a while back where i would just cut out after a short run like you. wait 2-20 mins and would run back to the dock. The reason i am saying this is im not entirely sure that carbs are your problem i just want you to trouble shoot some before we tear them off and waste a few hours on something that may not be the problem. Anyway this is also a sign of a failing electrical component that when they get hot they fail and do not produce a spark, once cooled they will start working again. I AM NOT saying this is positively your issue but it is super easy using the tests i told you to see what you are missing when you die. Also a different electrical issue i had last weekend in the 60hp was it died no spark. Stator went out, but 2.5 hours later at the house after some trouble shooting and here on iboats i went to test some more and it ran?? Electrical issues are the worst there usually intermittant and need electrical testing with a volt/ohm meter. Oh just so you know my first issue i described was like 4 yrs ago and was a failing powerpack. It still will work if i hook it up untill some unopportune time when it decides to quit. I keep it in the boat incase the other happens to fail i can swap it to run, i also keep spare coils to change out if i need as i only have a 2 cyl. Being down one you really are down unlike a big motor that easily can be down one and still move pretty good.


-Nate

 

[Xandre]

Re: Carbs/Float???

hey man, this issue seems like the problem i was just having. i have a 1979 johnson 35hp. i took it out the first time, ran great. 2nd time, took it out and i had issues keeping it running, cleaned out the carb but than i didn't change out the old cruddy gas lines. replaced the gas lines and looked at the carb again to find out that where the float is hinged, there is a very small point that only goes up and down by gravity, it's about 1/2 inch long. this point was actually sticking and not falling back down like it should have been, (so the bowl would fill up as i primed it, than i could start it up and it would seem to run for about 2 minutes, than same thing would happen.) so we pulled it out and it had a white creamy film on it. carb cleaned the hell out it and the rest of the carb. just took it out and had no problems. ran about 30 minutes than it got dark no lights.

not sure if this will help, but hope it does

This does help by the way! Thank you!

 

[Xandre]

Re: Carbs/Float???

Take a scredriver or any object you have and tap the bowl not hard to bust it but not soft like your hitting your kid on the head either give it a few swift smacks on the carb body or the bowl on the bottom. This will free a stuck float of needle most times. I would do this when you cut out and cant restart on each bowl and then prime the ball and try to start immediatly (if it worked you will feel fuel flow through the ball.).

I have been trying this but am not sure if it helps or not. I think I was tapping but not then squeezing the bulb. I can try again today if it's not raining when I get out of work.

Should I have one carb or two???

Another thing i really would like to see you do before you tear them off is to get some fuel in a spray bottle get gas/oil mix or you can really use straight seafoam, its got lube properties in it but mix is the best. Anyway take your bottle with you and when you cutout i want you to remove the carb covers and the hood spray some in as someone is cranking the motor.

I'm confused where exactly I spray the fuel/gas mix...?

Do I unscrew the lean/rich nozzles and spray in there? Is there another opening I am missing?

Should I disconnect the fuel line first?

I'm pretty sure that it gets flooded because gas spews out of the carb when I experience this issue. The fact that it doesn't want to start up or moves very slowly when this happens is confusing to me because it would seem that if it is flooded it has plenty of fuel to run off?

Is that incorrect?

I had an issue a while back where i would just cut out after a short run like you. wait 2-20 mins and would run back to the dock. The reason i am saying this is im not entirely sure that carbs are your problem i just want you to trouble shoot some before we tear them off and waste a few hours on something that may not be the problem. Anyway this is also a sign of a failing electrical component that when they get hot they fail and do not produce a spark, once cooled they will start working again. I AM NOT saying this is positively your issue but it is super easy using the tests i told you to see what you are missing when you die. Also a different electrical issue i had last weekend in the 60hp was it died no spark. Stator went out, but 2.5 hours later at the house after some trouble shooting and here on iboats i went to test some more and it ran?? Electrical issues are the worst there usually intermittant and need electrical testing with a volt/ohm meter. Oh just so you know my first issue i described was like 4 yrs ago and was a failing powerpack. It still will work if i hook it up untill some unopportune time when it decides to quit. I keep it in the boat incase the other happens to fail i can swap it to run, i also keep spare coils to change out if i need as i only have a 2 cyl. Being down one you really are down unlike a big motor that easily can be down one and still move pretty good.

Nate, your input is really helping me figure this thing out. Thank so much for your in depth responses!

-Alex

 

[clemsonfor]

Re: Carbs/Float???

Sorry, i ramble from time to time, i can see why its confusing. I dont even remember what motor you have let me look...this is the late 60's seahorse 33HP right? I assume you have one carb like my old 25 hp. I just looked up a 1969 rude, same as johnson, and it showed 1 carb.

See link:

http://shop2.evinrude.com/Index.aspx?s1=k1bs989rscg5glb4qn2hp7fqt4&catalog_id=0&siteid=1

You can change the motor to a johnson if you want lok up on the top left and you can swap to johnson, but it dose not matter only in latter years i think like in the 2000's did they actually not produce the same motors with one only making 2 strokes and different HP sizes. Anyway back to your questions.

To do the fuel test with a squirt bottle of gas mix that i was talking about you will take motor cover off and the little cover over the front of the carborator so that you can look into it. Leave everything else connected when it shuts off, you can leave fuel line connected. Spray directly into the throat of the carberator with your mixture. This if it fires will tell you if your getting fuel. BUT i must have missed something you said earlier. If FUEL is running out of the carb when it cuts out your getting gas, casue it will suck that fuel back into the engine out or the carb thoat on the intake stroke, its a pretty powerful suction it creates. If that is the case i would say yes your flooding and its most likely a needle/float problem.

It could be that the needle valve is so worn out it has trouble regulating and there fore cutting out the fuel flow at times causing it to flood.

And no to much fuel will not make you run faster without the corresponding ratio of air. This is the smae logic why you can pull the choke and stop a motor that is warm. Your richening the mixture to a level that is to rich to ignite as there is not enough air. Too much fuel will not ignite as there is not an adequate amount of air to mix with it. You want a mist of gas not a flood of gas.

Let me know of any thing else.

 

[Xandre]

Re: Carbs/Float???

Sorry, i ramble from time to time, i can see why its confusing. I dont even remember what motor you have let me look...this is the late 60's seahorse 33HP right? I assume you have one carb like my old 25 hp. I just looked up a 1969 rude, same as johnson, and it showed 1 carb.

Yep 1968 Johnson 33 Hp super seahorse. OK one carb...thx

If FUEL is running out of the carb when it cuts out your getting gas, casue it will suck that fuel back into the engine out or the carb thoat on the intake stroke, its a pretty powerful suction it creates. If that is the case i would say yes your flooding and its most likely a needle/float problem.

It could be that the needle valve is so worn out it has trouble regulating and there fore cutting out the fuel flow at times causing it to flood.

This makes sense with what's going on and seems to be the best conclusion. I was testing it out yesterday and trying to throttle down very gradually into an idle speed to see how long I could hold that idle before it dies on me. The first time I did it it seemed to idle with out a problem and I just slowly moved around the bay.

Then I full throttled without a problem for a while and brought it down slowly again but this time a bit faster. It seemed to have more trouble this time and I had to let it sit for a while.

If it is in fact the float what is it exactly about slowing down suddenly makes it flood? If the suction sucks it BACK into the engine why does it come out of the carb...or am I still not grasping it?

I read on another thread that you can just drain the bowl by tipping the engine and opening up one of the low/high speed knobs? Is that something helpful here?

Thanks again!

 

[clemsonfor]

Re: Carbs/Float???

Yep 1968 Johnson 33 Hp super seahorse. OK one carb...thx




This makes sense with what's going on and seems to be the best conclusion. I was testing it out yesterday and trying to throttle down very gradually into an idle speed to see how long I could hold that idle before it dies on me. The first time I did it it seemed to idle with out a problem and I just slowly moved around the bay.

Then I full throttled without a problem for a while and brought it down slowly again but this time a bit faster. It seemed to have more trouble this time and I had to let it sit for a while.

If it is in fact the float what is it exactly about slowing down suddenly makes it flood? If the suction sucks it BACK into the engine why does it come out of the carb...or am I still not grasping it?

I read on another thread that you can just drain the bowl by tipping the engine and opening up one of the low/high speed knobs? Is that something helpful here?

Thanks again!

My 60 hp would flood when throttleing down quick. I think its because its flowing fuel at a good rate then you get off the gas and the float is to high or wont close the needle all the way allowing excess gas and you go from an advance spark to not as advanced and less air and you cant burn all the fuel till it cuts out from being overrich. Its sucks it in to a point.

I did not realize till my last post that we were talking a 2 cyl single carb engine. For some reason i though you had an older v4, i dunno where i got that from. I must have had several windows open at once and responding and reading all of them and was reading about a v4.

My last point is just pull the carb, there not that hard and you only have one. The v4 or 6s have anywhere from 2-6 carbs so a bit more work! To bad you dont live near me id come help you out cause its not hard i could get there and pull that thing and spray and blow it out and put it backtogeather with new packing and float and needle in less than 30 mins. Im not that good i promise, there just that easy.

All you need to do is take the cover off the front of the carb, disconnect the linkages and the 2 like 1/2" nuts that hold it on and then take it apart. Put new packing in the high and low needles put new float and needle and blow all the orfaces out or at least spray them with carb cleaner. You will have to find the Joe reeves thead on adjusting those adjustable carbs though. But i think its usually start with them like all the way in then back out 1.5 turns and then start adjusting. Im sure i ahve a copy of the Joe reeves adjustment instructions somewhere.

 

[AlTn]

Re: Carbs/Float???

if you'll google...Max Wawrzyniak Bringing a 1956 Johnson Back to Life...you might find that very informative as to 2 stroke theory and the operation of carbs and ignition systems...the "how it works" will help you determine the "why it won't"....

 

[levi_tsk]

Re: Carbs/Float???

Xander,
the number three on the third pic you posted is the electric choke ... you may have to take some linkage loose from it
also take those screws out you pointed to and on each side of the carb there should be a nut holding it on for a total of two nuts should be a 7/16" or a 1/2" wrench to take it off

also REST ASSURED your float needle is STUCK ... time to redo the carb as daviet said you might dislodge the gunk in there with some seafoam but 90% of the time whatever it is aint coming out till you romove it by hand or with compressed air
get the kit daviet was telling you to get... go on ebay and punch in that part number as marine engine has a baseline $10 shipping charge which doesnt make sense if the carb kit is only 20 bux
you should be able to get an oem kit there or im pm'ing you a link to one from i guy i get all my parts from hes a great guy and has AWESOME customer service and his shipping isnt bad either

1st go to advance auto parts or any other parts store and get a can of carb DIP the spray can stuff just wont cut it

2nd as stated before take the carb all the way down but leave the throttle blade and its shaft in place theres only about 15 parts to take out including the screws (make sure you take out the welsh plug and the top of the carb)
4th once youve got it all apart soak it overnight in your carb dip along with the high and low speed needles and and all the other parts except for the needle, seat and the float (these will come new in the kit so throw em away )
5th remove the carb and its parts from the dip and blow everything out with either a can of dust off or compressed air paying close attention to the jets and the passages in the carb body (preferably compressed air)

6th reassemble the carb and put it back on the motor do an initial setting of 1 1/2 turns out from GENTLY seated on both the high and low speed needles you have to sett he high speed FIRST and on the water so take off full bore turning the needle in a little at the time until the engine wants to cut off or spit back turn it out 1/8th of a turn from THAT setting and lock the retaining nut down tight DO NOT MOVE IT AGAIN now throttle down IN GEAR until the motor will just stay running turn the needle in and as the engine picks up throttle lower it back down repeat this several times until the engine once again spits back turn it out 1/8th of a turn and leave it alone lock down the retaining nut and BLAM ! your done should be good to go for quite awhile

a note on seafoam it WILL help keep a fuel system clean and prevent buildup of gum and crud alone with burn off the carbon on the rings and cylinder head inside the carb but its no replacement for a good carb rebuild though i DO advise you use it if only for every few tanks of gas

and please for the love of bob DO NOT jam anything into the passages of your carb if it wont come out after a good soak and blow out with compressed air SOAK IT LONGER ... those holes and passages are VERY sensitive to scratches and nicks and even the tiniest imperfection can ruin the perfomance of these carbs

 

[clemsonfor]

Re: Carbs/Float???

Better said than this A.D.D man could sit down and type let alone remember.

 

[Xandre]

Re: Carbs/Float???

if you'll google...Max Wawrzyniak Bringing a 1956 Johnson Back to Life...you might find that very informative as to 2 stroke theory and the operation of carbs and ignition systems...the "how it works" will help you determine the "why it won't"....

Googled it. Wow! Thanks for passing that my way. I've read some of it already and it's really a bible for outboard motors! I'll be referring to often I'm sure!

Cheers!

 

[Xandre]

Re: Carbs/Float???

OK Thank for the past few in depth posts guys! I've finally come to the conclusion that I just need to man up and get this done. I'll need to know how to do this in the future anyway.

So now for my next round of questions:

1. How long do I let the parts soak for in carb dip? I have read a few hours and over night....

2. What type of spray bottle do you use for spraying the gas/seafoam mix through the openings and orifices? Similar to the type of sprayer people might use when spraying plants or using for ironing?

3. Model #- finally found this. The plate was so covered in oil and dirt I couldn't see it.
Reads:
Model: RXE-14R
Serial: J2682683

I don't see it listed here:

http://www.boats.net/parts/search/BRP/JOHNSON/1968/parts.html

I want to order this the rebuild kit ASAP but am not sure now which to get.

4. In my first image I'm concerned about disconnecting the parts I have circled. Which do I disconnect? Is there anything I need to be aware of?

5. In the second image of the gas tank I have labeled where I have holes in the tank under the handles. Gas leaks out when I shake it to mix the gas/oil. I can easily see how this might allow dirt or paint which is flaking off the can to get inside the as and causing issues!

I think it's obvious I need a new gas tank. What other issues will this cause...lack of pressure I assume would restrict fuel flow? Are the plastic tanks the way to go now due to ethanol?


Thanks everyone. Your input is invaluable and so appreciated!

 

[Xandre]

Re: Carbs/Float???

Better said than this A.D.D man could sit down and type let alone remember.

Haha. Even though sometimes I'm not sure where your sentences begin or end you have been a HUGE help!!

I like your responses....it's like a constant stream of consciousness concerning boat motors =)

 

[levi_tsk]

Re: Carbs/Float???

Xandre i reccomend an overnight soak and instead of using fuel mix or carb cleaner to blow it out use dustoff OR preferably compressed air ... the reason for this is everthing will be clean and dry during reassembly and it will make the parts cleaner inturn and youl have less of a chance of boogering things up due to the cleanliness i use an overnight because it makes everything look brand new even the brass will look new ... this will further allow you to keep things clean and youll be able to see deposits and gum on the jets and other parts better

starting to notice athe pattern to what im saying ? CLEANLINESS IS KEY!!!! ESPECIALLY with a carb job - a cat hair or an eyelash can booger up the whole thing

 

[Xandre]

Re: Carbs/Float???

Better said than this A.D.D man could sit down and type let alone remember.

Just looked up where in SC you live. I went to college down your way (kinda) in Savannah...I miss the south for sure!

 

[Xandre]

Re: Carbs/Float???

Xandre i reccomend an overnight soak and instead of using fuel mix or carb cleaner to blow it out use dustoff OR preferably compressed air ... the reason for this is everthing will be clean and dry during reassembly and it will make the parts cleaner inturn and youl have less of a chance of boogering things up due to the cleanliness i use an overnight because it makes everything look brand new even the brass will look new ... this will further allow you to keep things clean and youll be able to see deposits and gum on the jets and other parts better

So should I soak in a carb cleaner overnight? Any recommendations on which product to buy?

Thanks!

 

[levi_tsk]

Re: Carbs/Float???

the gunk carb medic stuff from advance auto parts, O'rieley's, pepboys, NAPA, or auto zone any parts houses will have it its about 25 bux for a gallon can but it works better than a case of the spray can stuff .... plus it works great on other things....

 

[Xandre]

Re: Carbs/Float???

the gunk carb medic stuff from advance auto parts, O'rieley's, pepboys, NAPA, or auto zone any parts houses will have it its about 25 bux for a gallon can but it works better than a case of the spray can stuff .... plus it works great on other things....

Awesome thank you!

I see you are in Savannah! Lived there for 3.5 years! Miss it

 

[levi_tsk]

Re: Carbs/Float???

well ... right now im in south florida savannah's nice but the beaches here are SO much better