Change lu gears force guys

slx12001

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Hello, Question, I have a 1989 125hp force. It has 15/26 1.73 gears. I would like to change to 15/30 2.0 gears as the hull is heavy and I would like more prop options. The question is can I just change the forward to 30t and leave reverse at 26t or Must the gears be the same? Thanks, Doug.
 

SkiDad

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I'm not sure but I would say it's not that easy - I just did the swap from 1.73:1 to 2:1 and I did it by just getting a used lower unit - 200 bucks and it was a done deal. it really pulls harder now but I lost a few MPH keeping the same props. I'm probably going to jump up to a 17p prop for my normal load. You don't gain any props though - they take the same props.
 

Texasmark

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Dec 20, 2005
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1.73 to 2.0 is a 16% change. I'd say mitzysman got himself a deal with a used, apparently in good condition, replacement for $200. You can't buy a prop for that; not much of one anyway.

For prop availability, I ran some pitch numbers that may help:

15 to 19 26% change
16 to 19 18% change
17 to 19 11% change
17 to 20 17% change

Maybe you could find a prop to suit you to make up the difference. Obviously since you are looking at increasing your ratio the prop will turn slower providing less WOT mph but better hole shot. So going down in pitch would be your direction. The better hole shot would result in the fact that even though the pitch is less, with a decreased load on the engine it could spin up faster, developing hp faster and you would be farther up the torque/rpm curves and that is what turns the prop!

Considering the amount of prop slip (which helps to negate any pitch change) in the hole, I personally don't see the exact pitch comparison as relevant; as relevant as getting up your rpms. Case in point is that a 20% change in prop pitch (realizing in reality just how much of that) could increase your rpms easily by 1000 rpm. In the hole when the engine is struggling to get the boat on plane and get to 2500 rpm and 25-30 mph a 1000 rpm increase is a 50% gain assuming a 1500 rpm previous number.

Just my thoughts.

Mark
 

SkiDad

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Doug, what prop are you running now and how is it doing ?
 

slx12001

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Thanks for the replies. The boat is a 1989 bayliner 1804 trophy bass fish and ski. The listed weight is 1470 pounds. Not sure if this includes the 300 pound motor. It holds 19 gallons of gas usually always topped off so 115 pounds. 375 pounds usually with me wife and kid. another 250+ stuff so about 2925 or 3225 depending if motor is included in 1470. I run mercury 4-1/4 props but the 1989 force 125 is a single exhaust motor. I have:
merc 17p 5100rpm 38mph gps
merc 19p 4200rpm 39mph gps
wheel 17p 5200rpm 38mph gps
I tried a turning point hustler 17p it had crazy rake and acted like a 19p merc 4200rpm but 40mph gps
My goal is 40mph gps and over 5000rpm with good hole shot. With the merc 17p I have nice midrange 3600 rpm about 30mph good punch to wot as well from there. all props are aluminum
 
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Frank Acampora

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Jan 19, 2007
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You may not change just the forward gear. you must change the whole lower unit because the 2 - 1 pinion is smaller and the forward and reverse gear teeth are smaller. You can, however also swap in a later Force 1.95 - 1 lower unit. ANY 3 or 4 cylinder EXCEPT the 70-75 will work. Additionally, the dual exhaust lower units are supposed to give better performance. I have tried them and see no difference. The 1.95 does have more robust gear teeth and a larger water pump so it probably is a better choice than the 2-1 lower. You can not just swap gear paks though. You must use a whole lower unit.

SOME of the later lower units with Mercury water pumps will require cutting a little metal off the midleg webs for clearance but that is the only possible modification you would need.

If you do swap lower units, you should go up two inches in prop pitch to account for the higher gear ratio. You should see an increase in performance because using the higher pitch prop at a lower RPM yields less parasitic drag and frees up more horsepower to drive the boat.
 
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slx12001

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I forgot to mention that this is a very stern heavy boat. Anything more then zero trim and you get bouncy bouncy. Today I decided to raise the motor to the bottom holes to remedy this. The vent plate was about 1-3/4" below the bottom now it's about 1/2" below. Strange things happened. I thought for sure I would pick up rpm on top at least. Nope top rpm stayed about the same with my 17p merc prop. Speed stayed the same as well. The porposing may be even worse which has me baffled. The only positive is it may be a little quicker out of the hole. I did also notice some slight surging on top end as well. Not enough to tell on the tach but may be slipping now with the motor 1-1/4 higher. I think I may need a stern lifting 4 blade prop to stop porposing but how do I start over without buying 3 props? The 4 blade in my case may also get me more mph as I will be able to trim? Any help would be great. Thanks.
 

Texasmark

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I don't know if this is the thread I joined where the engine had some setback and a porpoising problem. If so you just added some important info.

The high rake on the Hustler is designed for bow lift if the hull is designed to accommodate it. Apparently so as I see that as your reason for picking up 2 mph with the Hustler. Bow lift means less boat in the water which is less drag and more mph. In it loading the engine that's probably the cupping making it act like 2" more pitch at WOT

On stern lifting you added that you had a stern heavy boat. That in itself can cause a problem with porpoising. Possibly a 4 blade prop would help and possibly trim tabs would help.

I agree that being able to trim out "should" help your mph and all but you have to get on the other side of the porpoising curve first.

Looking back at your situation and load I think that 125 ponies aren't enough to get you where you need to be.

Here's a suggestion to support that. Empty your boat of everything and everybody you can to get it as light as possible. Go out and make your run at your current engine height. Run the Merc 17P prop and the Hustler. Come back with the results.

Mark
 

SkiDad

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i'd say the 17p michigan at 38 mph is about all you are going to get with that much weight - the 1470 includes the engine. I was getting about the same speeds with my 1:73 lower unit. Of course maybe your hull will probably respond better than mine - my dad boat is a cobra and he turns higher rpm b/c I think it's a shallow V like yours. I think pnwboat has a cobra too and he got a few mph more by changing lowers and going with 19p.

PS - how did the hustler prop fit? - I was thinking of looking at one of those in 15p - did you have to modify anything to get it one (except taking anode off) ? Did you use original thrust washer or did there's fit. Was hole shot any better compared to your 19p? I realize a 15 will probably be like a 17 rpm wise. What merc props did you get to fit ?
 

slx12001

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My motor is on the transom no jack plate no setback up as high as I can go. The hustler prop fits on easily. I have a single exhaust motor so I have an exhaust snout. The hustler 17p has a lot of rake so there is about 1/2" clearance from the snout due to the rake. All other 4-1/4 merc props that I tried fit with no problems. I had to remove the anode on the gear case to fit the hustler. You use the thrust washer that comes with the turning point hustler prop. All fits well but you use your smaller lock nut as the merc 4-1/4 gear case uses the same 15t spline but the lock nut is bigger. The 17p hustler acts like a 19p prop. It was a dog out of the hole for me and rpm's were down to 4200. I talked to turning point and they say their 15p hustler is less rake and acts like a standard 15p prop so who knows what there deal is. Top speed was good though. I don't think that I will remove all of my gear as I already know my motor is under powered and this is how I will be running everyday. Looking for a fix to porpoising and would like to see 40mph while still in my power band. I'm going to try a merc spit fire 15p next. Any one have experience with the 4 blade merc spitfire?
 

SkiDad

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that spitfire is another prop I want to try to - i was thinking that in 17p for my setup - so do post back how you like the spitfire if you get one. I'm confused when looking for one b/c they all seem to say 'pontoon' now and the blade looks different - the video i saw the trailing edge looked pretty strait - almost chopper prop like.

I dropped from 38 mph and 36 mph with my 15p AL prop when I swapped lower units - i think something in 17p will get me about close to there. thanks for the info on the hustler props. i have a 15p stainless that is made for a force and it gets me also around 36 now also but i think it's a old design - it does have great grip of the water though.
 

slx12001

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I Just tried a se sport 200 foil that I had on before I raised the motor. With the motor low the foil was like pulling a truck behind me. Now with the motor up I lost 100 rpm and less then 1 mph average gps. Pourposing is reduced a little as well. But out of the hole is great with it on now.
mitzysman:
You dropped from 38 to 36 with 15p and 2.0 gears? How were the rpms before after? If there was little difference in rpm I would think you could pull 17p easily.
 

SkiDad

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my rpm went up about 800 with the change - i was running about 4900-ish recently with the 1.73 and 15p (a little lower than last year b/c I lowered my timing 2 degrees) - anyhow I jumped to 5700. I know that a 17p would put me right about 5300 and get me about 2 more mph - at least 37.5 - for some reason I was getting a little better speed when my timing was set too high, but I'm done messing with timing b/c it caused me grief.

my approx. numbers last year were at 1.73

5000 rpm / 38 mph - 15p AL
4700 rpm / 36 mph - 15p SS
4600 rpm / 40 mph - 17p AL

my approx. numbers at 2.0

5700 rpm / 35.5 mph - 15p AL - got 37 with just me but rpm was still 5700
5400 rpm / 35 mph - 15p SS

my normal load is about 2400 lbs - add 1-2 mph to all above figures with just me in the boat (2000 lbs). Seems my slip went from 8% to 12% with the changes - i know that based on other factors - I'm guessing that since peak horsepower is made at 5000 that I'm not getting too much advantage going too much past it - but it sure does help on the hole shot.

you might want to contact Ken at Prop Gods .com and see what he can hook you up with - i was talking to him about a powertech RED3 prop this winter but never was able to get one. I wonder if something like that in 16p would be the ticket for you - that prop has 1" increments and powertech allows you to exchange pitch for 40 bucks I believe.
 

slx12001

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Got the 15p Merc Spitfire 4 blade prop. There are 2 version 15p one is 10.1" dia and the other is 13.4" I got the 13.4" diameter. It easily clears the ex snout and the blades are actually closer to the gearcase so lots of clearance. But the OD of the prop hub does not fit in to the gear case. I'm having it machined down at the moment. Cant wait to try it. The Hustler prop fits nicely into the gear case. It also comes with a ring to use in larger gear cases. Strange thing happened while I was waiting. I have a MI wheel 17p that was running 5200rpm and 38mph gps. I sent this prop back as it was burning at the base of the hub. All 3 leading edges at the hub were 1/2 way through the aluminum after 15 gal gas or less. They sent me a replacement and stated this one wont do that. Well it did noticeably burn after 5 gallons of gas. To top that off the replacement wheel 17p revs 5300rpm and top speed 33mph on gps! Where did 5mph go with supposedly the same prop?! I put old faithful merc 17p back on and all is well. This MI wheel 17p prop is a solid hub for single exhaust. It's crazy that 2 props burn at the base of the hub like that and even crazier that the second has over 30% slip. Any one have similar results with the wheel solid hub prop?
 

slx12001

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I got the spitfire 15p 13.4 diameter mounted on my motor. Very happy with this prop. It gets out of the hole like a good 15p and has top end like a good 17p. Ended up with 5000rpm 38mph gps with the slip calculator saying 7% slip!. I can also stay planed under 19mph which was not possible before. Here are some pictured of what I had to do to mount it and mounted. Very happy. I should be able to pull 1 more mile per hour and 150-200rom's on better water. That would exceed the best 17p 3 blade that I tried staying in my rpm range. Doug.
 

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slx12001

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slx12001

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There has been a database error, and the current page cannot be displayed. Site staff have been notified.

Sorry about the double posts. I keep getting this error then a while later the post shows up?
 

slx12001

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Did anyone else ever try the spitfire 4 blade prop on there force? I love this prop. Holeshot like a 15p and top end like a 17p. I can quickly plane fully loaded at 3K rpm. It should be able to fit single, dual, and through prop force engines. Through prop will need the OD turned down to fit in the case for through prop exhaust all others simply need the prop completely turned down to leave 15-20 thousandths between the case.
 
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