*Cheap* Horse power Gains? Not Really

freak007

Petty Officer 2nd Class
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Re: *Cheap* Horse power Gains? Not Really

I would prefer to say that horsepower is the repetition of torque as opposed to a derivative . . . This brings in the RPM . . . If efficiency was equal, I would rather have a 20,000 RPM engine with peak torque of 200 at 10,000 RPM, than a 5,000 RPM engine with peak torque of 400 at 2500 . . . ;)

Torque is what accelerates your boat or any other vehicle... But for a "non race" applications, peak torque at the crank doesn't matter... it is AVERAGE torque TO THE WHEEL or in this case PROP... For example, lets say your "goal" wheel/prop speed is 4000 RPM... you have a 20,000 RPM engine which makes 200 ft lbs (762 Hp) at max RPM would need a gear reduction of 5:1 effectively turning 200 ft-lbs into 1000... If we have a 5500 RPM engine makes 675 Ft/lbs (706 Hp) it would need a Gear reduction of 1.375:1 to get the desired output shaft speed, effectively producing 928 ft/lbs... now which engine has more peak power? Which engine has more USABLE (for the average person) power? Which engine will last longer?
 

danond

Lieutenant Junior Grade
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Re: *Cheap* Horse power Gains? Not Really

A wise man once said "it's important to know when you're in a pissing match, and to get out of it as quick as you can".
 

45Auto

Commander
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Re: *Cheap* Horse power Gains? Not Really

Crap, just couldn't resist any longer!

HP is absolute. It's a measurement of the ability to do work.

Absolute??? What does that mean? Power is a derived unit. It?s defined as the time rate at which work is done or energy emitted or transferred. If you want to describe it in mathematical terms (a real world application of calculus!!), POWER is the derivative of work with respect to time, just like velocity is the time derivative of position and acceleration is the time derivative of velocity.

ENERGY is defined as the ability to do work. Horsepower has NOTHING to do with the ability to do work. It only quantifies the RATE at which work could be done. Kind of like knowing that you?re going 30 MPH (time derivative of position) tells you nothing about where you are UNLESS you know where you started from and how long you?ve been going 30 MPH.

A 50 HP engine can potentially do much more work than a 500 HP engine. It depends only on the amount of energy (fuel) each one has available. Would you rather be heading for Niagra Falls in a 500 HP boat with no fuel or a 50 HP boat with full tanks? According to your definition, the 500 HP boat has the ability to do more work so it should be able to get away from the falls easier!!

This link has a pretty good explanation of what energy is:

http://www.montereyinstitute.org/co...nce/course files/readings/2a_FlowofEnergy.pdf

I think you're confusing yourself with WORK, ENERGY, and POWER. They're not the same thing.

HP is absolute. It's a measurement of the ability to do work.

ENERGY is defined as the ability to do work. If you want to know how much work something can do you need to know how much energy it has. For example, gasoline contains chemical energy. One gallon of gas contains about 35 kilowatt-hours of energy. 35 KWH is about 47 HP-hours (notice how you have to have the time unit in there to define the ability to do work (energy) in HP. That?s because when you take the time derivative of energy to get power, the time goes away. That leaves the power unit). That means if you had a 100% efficient motor, a gallon of gas would put out 47 HP for an hour. Or 94 HP for ? hour. Or 23 HP for 2 hours. All of these are doing the exact same amount of work. In reality, a gasoline engine is about 20% efficient. 80% of the energy in that gallon of gas goes into waste heat. So instead of getting 47 HP-hours per gallon of gas you really get about 10. That?s where the rule of thumb to divide an engine?s max HP by 10 to determine max fuel flow comes from. For example, a 100 HP engine will use about 10 gallons per hour at Wide Open Throttle (when it?s putting out 100 HP).

If you want to know how fast something can do work, then you need to know how much POWER it has. A 5 HP boat with 5 gallons of gas has the ability to do INFINITELY more work than a 500 HP boat with no gas (since the 500HP motor can do no work at all) (I know, I?m simplifying, ignoring potential, kinetic, etc. energy ? I?m assuming you aren?t going to shove the 500 HP motor over a cliff or something).

POWER is defined as the time rate at which work is done or energy is transferred. That?s why HP is a useful term, it tells you HOW FAST a motor can do work. A 500 HP motor and a 50 HP motor can do the same amount of work given equal efficiency and equal energy (fuel), the 500HP motor can just do it in 1/10 the time of the 50HP motor.

If you think this is confusing, just wait until we bring TORQUE into the discussion!!

Sorry, couldn?t resist!!! :)

PS to Danond: I brought my umbrella and rainsuit!
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: *Cheap* Horse power Gains? Not Really

See what you guys have done? You got 45Auto into this. You should never do that as he brings facts into the deal and all of our closely held, incorrect beliefs get beaten down to a messy pulp. Do you guys never learn?

Freak bond dude,

It was a hypothetical engine . . . but I'll respond anyway

Torque is what accelerates your boat or any other vehicle...
OK sorta
But for a "non race" applications, peak torque at the crank doesn't matter...
Of course it "matters", but more for a wheeled vehicular application than marine . . . If you are having trouble getting a boat to plane, then it matters a lot . . .

it is AVERAGE torque TO THE WHEEL or in this case PROP...
I don't know what that is . . .

you have a 20,000 RPM engine which makes 200 ft lbs (762 Hp) at max RPM would need a gear reduction of 5:1 effectively turning 200 ft-lbs into 1000... If we have a 5500 RPM engine makes 675 Ft/lbs (706 Hp) it would need a Gear reduction of 1.375:1 to get the desired output shaft speed, effectively producing 928 ft/lbs... now which engine has more peak power?
Uh, the 20,000 RPM engine still makes 762 hp if we do not calculate in any efficiency losses from the gear reduction . . . I'll take a leap here and say I still like 762 hp more than 706 . . .

Which engine has more USABLE (for the average person) power?
Uh, the 20,000 RPM engine . . .

Which engine will last longer?
The one that was built with the biggest budget? I don't know as both are hypothetical. I was not contemplating setting up a 3.0 to run 20,000 RPM :eek: I was using the example to show that a lower torque value can produce higher horsepower when you add in RPM. You have also illustrated that torque increases with gear reduction, but horsepower stays the same, which helps explain that ultimately horsepower is what makes all your stuff go, and stay going, and going fast . . . ;)

It also illustrates that a 200 lb/ft. engine @ 20,000 RPM crank speed can deliver 1000 lb/ft. torque to a shaft turning 4000 RPM with 5:1 gear reduction . . . So, if I can get 1000 lb/ft through gear reduction why would I need to look for a 2000 lb/ft @ 2000 RPM engine and use 1:2 overdrive to get that same 1000 lb/ft at the shaft at 4000 RPM? But I thought all that mattered was torque, so wouldn't I prefer the 2000 lb/ft job? No, because the task was to turn a shaft at 4000 RPM and deliver 1000 lb/ft. . . . More than one way to skin a cat . . . Again HYPOTHETICAL, I am not trying to setup a boat here, only explain the relationship of torque and horsepower and how gear reduction and RPM affect (or don't affect) both.

Sorry all, I guess we just have to go through this once every six months or so . . . Yeah, I know I started it . . . :rolleyes:

Oh, and just to show that I was paying attention. Throw this entire thread out the window if we have no fuel . . . BTW, that's what a tow rope is for . . . :)

Oh, oh, I can get you one of those 2000 lb/ft at 2000 RPM engines if you want one, and they are approaching 40% thermal efficiency too . . . ;)
 

wca_tim

Lieutenant Commander
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
1,708
Re: *Cheap* Horse power Gains? Not Really

darned, anal retentive, overanalytical engineering types!!! ;) (for whom I actually have a great deal of respect and admiration)

So in my niave but overeducated synopsis on torque and horsepower:

if we make things like hull, gear ratio, prop, etc... constant for now,

peak horsepower is the best indication of how fast we can go (referring to wot and if propped so peak is right at wot).

peak torque is how quickly - at what rate - we can accellerate to a given speed.

as we increase horsepower, we increase top speed, as we increase torque, we increase "seat of the pants" performance (assuming throttle response, etc...).

as we increase torque, we increase the force available to accellerate, to get on plane, pull a skier out of the hole, etc...

Horsepower is the rate at which we can do work, torque represents the rate we can increase the rate at which work is done.

x ft pounds (bizzare british units...) of torque at 0 rpms, is potential energy...

Does anything think it is an accident that maring engines target peak horsepower at a relatively mild rpm range (ie. 4800 rpms), a broad, flat torque curve with a max somewhere around 3500 in many cases? This engine design gives the best all arround performance for pulling, running fast, mid range accelleration, getting on plane under wide range of conditions, etc...

Since almost everyone here when talking aobut adding horsepower is really interested in increasing accelleration and / or top end, shouldn't we think about the primary factors involved in each? Maybe it would be better to make a list of all the things that can be done that have a measurable impact on the imporant factors. While I got the comment above indicating that the sum of all the small steps doesn't necessarily equal the individual steps... it is not always worse - sometimes more. for example, say you get 10 hp gain from a little bigger carb and intake, then add a cam. the cam you choose by itself might add 10 horsepower, but the combination of the carb, intake and cam adds 40 horsepower. We're not even considering what engine speed that's at - it all makes a difference and is interrelated...

Wouldn't it be more useful rather than bantering about on symantics and definitions if we simply listed some of the things that can be done to good effect?

engine mods obviously have huge potential, but let's talk about some of the other things... and don't scoff at things that will make a 1 mph difference - remember for many average sized, average hulled recreational boats, that's on the order of 10 horsepower!

Prop selection: being propped correctly for the kind of performance you're interested in. This is a complex topic with a lot of subtleties. There are some great articles and information out there if you're interested. Many of the words of "common wisdom" are not necessarily correct if you're not the average boater or don't have the average goal in mind (that's most of us!). A lot of what people told me about propping was not correct once I really dug into things and then got even further off when I actually started trying a bunch of different props. Don't accept convention without question! Prop change can make a HUGE difference. (as can having one fixed if it's got dings on it or is out of balance...) Like many of the things here, prop selection and the related interdependance on other factors involves so many degrees of freedom that it winds up being more of an art than a science in the long run, but there are factors we can get a handle on to guide our thinking and trial and error efforts to make improvements.

GEAR RATIO: There are a couple of great older power boat articles on this topic that really opened my eyes on the relationship between gear ratio and prop selection. The point I want to make is that when we're talking aobut spending hundreds of dollars on performance mods or a new prop, don't assume that the factory handed down gear ratio will yiald the best performance for your application. Especially when you can buy a different upper for your alpha drive (sorry, most common here) and change the gear ratio. Contrary to the doctrine preached by some of the well-experienced, well-educated folks on here (no offense intended, your correct in most circumstances and I greatly appreciate the experience you share), the factory chosen gear ratio is not always the best for a given purpose or performance focus. gear ratio directly changes both torque and horsepower at the prop... It is especially important because it plays into prop selection and determines the range of prop characteristics we can take advantage of in a given situation.

weight and weight distribution: we see huge differences, especially in lighter planing boats when we take extra passengers... think about what you're hauling and why... 100 pounds puts a lot more wetted surface in the water and costs more horsepower (torque per unit speed???). Lose the extra crap you don't want or need, find an anorexic girlfriend and leave the overly healthy one at home, check your voids and foam for water!!!! This can be HUGE (hundreds of pounds)! and don't scoff at things that might be 20 pounds or so, find 10 of them and that's usually a mph or so. it all adds up and it costs the same torque and horsepower we're talking about trying to gain above... it's all about choices! weight distribution can also be a big deal - especially if it's off kilt. here the weight is, affects the aspect ratio of the hull in the water and changes the hull efficiency. and yes it is difference in different performance goals, running conditions and especially boat types.

Hull: when is the last time you looked at the bottom of your boat? is the running surface smooth? free of major defects? If you're running a padded v-hull, is the pad clean, smooth (or lightly sanded - lets leave that one alone for now, ok?), very flat and free from defects? this is not so hard to fix... for a padded v-hull for example, get a good straight edge and a sanding block, jack the boat up off the trailer a bit and "clean up" the running surface and make sure the pad is very flat (unless it has hook or rocker built in on purpose that you want to keep...), symmetrical and free from defects.

How about the outdrive and skeg? for faster boats, a huge portion of the drag the boat experiences at wot comes from the surface of the outdrive, is it covered in crap? scratched and gouged? or smooth, well cared for and free from defects? (take a look at a picture of a boat planing out, think about how much of the hull is actualy touching the water and then compare that with the amount of surface area of the drive is in the water....). if it's a mess, or especially if the skeg is battered and bent, this is not difficult to clean up, etc...

set up... is the boat planing at an angle where it was designed to be the most efficient? obviously this is connected with various things above and others, but for example, trim angle, prop-shaft height (most of us have little control over withour spending a lot of time and or money, usually both). would trim tabs help you optimize other things and allow you to further your performance goals?

engine issues. we've talked about these a lot and there is a lot of good stuff here. Probably the most important and most neglected is just optimizing what you have! new plugs? gapped properly? plug wires in good shape? separated adequately? ignition connections clean and tight? grounds clean and tight? carb clean and jetted properly for your set-up the way it is today - not necessarily the same as it was when you bought it or before you added that new spark arrestor or made exhaust changes... fuel filters clean? valve lash adjusted properly?? fresh, high quality engine oil (an aside here, we tend to run higher viscosity oils by habit, but don't forget that viscosity at temp adds drag inside the engine, use the right oil and better yet good quality synthetic... will that alone make a diffrerence, probably not one you can feel clearly... but it adds to the equation and taken together with many other "little" things can make a difference)? When't the last time you did a thorough tune-up on your engine? checked your compression?

Major and bolt on modifications are a huge topic and havre been beat to death, but here the key is optimizing the combination of mods to work together.

drive related... is your outdrive in good shape internally? good quality synthetic drive oil with the correct viscosity? (too thick can be as bas as to thin - no excuse for old, burnt or wet... drives are designed for a specific combination of lube characteristics, viscosity, flow, shear thinning, etc... and heat removal characteristics. Here again, adequate lubrication combined with good flow is key as are other aspects). is the drive properly aligned?etc...

OK, I'll get off my soap box. The major point i wanted to make is that there are a lot of things that can be done to achieve incremental increases in performance - most of which can be done by many of us, and for less than the cost of a tank of fuel. Lets say you do 10 "little" things... and get a .5 mph or 5 hp from each... that's the equivelent of 50 horsepower overall and on the order that adding vortec heads, mild cam, aluminum intake, 4 bbl carb and a days work would net on a 350. (oh and if you go there... the stock spark arrestor becomes limiting about there and can make a noticiable difference.. and the other mods don't make nearly as much difference if you don't take the time to tune again... carb jetting, optimizing ignition timing, etc...)

What other things like this have people had experience with that made even a small difference in preformance...

ie. adding a bow cover on a bow rider? I've heard 2-3 mph difference on this one (top end).

lightly sanding the pad and drive surface area (I'm thinking that this is somewhat of a crap shoot... enough texture and you induce minor bubble formation at the surface, lowering density and hence viscosity in the boundary layer which decreases drag in the laminar flow regime if we assume the same reynolds number and boundary layer thickness. a little too much and we add turbulent flow to the equation, thicken the boundary layer and increasing drag slowing us down... now listen to others, coat the surface with rainex or some other silicone wax / coating, dramatically increasing surface tension and what happens... my head hurts at hurts at this point, so it's time to quit before I hurt myself...)

All comments come with the disclaimer that I'm not expert, current honest opinion (always subject to change with new information or schooling by others, etc..) of a backyard hack with a mild obsession...

sorry bout the book... got carried away...
 
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45Auto

Commander
Joined
May 31, 2002
Messages
2,842
Re: *Cheap* Horse power Gains? Not Really

Excellent post Tim, sounds like you have an EXTREMELY good basis to evaluate any engine mods you're contemplating.

Only one little thing I see to quibble about with the way you put things:

peak torque is how quickly - at what rate - we can accellerate to a given speed.

Not necessarily peak torque, but the max torque available at the RPM when you whomp the throttle open. Acceleration comes down to "Power Available vs Power Required" (which is dependent on the max torque available at that particular RPM). A lot of that is in this thread:

http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=225803&highlight=boat+performance+secrets

which I'm pretty sure you're familiar with.

That's why you want a nice broad torque curve in a boat, not a real "peaky" one. You could concentrate the torque at the high end of the RPM band and have great peak HP and peak torque numbers, but the boat would not be able to accelerate hard enough to get on plane.......

Excellent post, great discussion on lots of good points!
 

QC

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
22,783
Re: *Cheap* Horse power Gains? Not Really

Yup ^^^ good job Tim and funny I focused on the same line as 45 did . . . Horsepower available vs. horsepower required, big deal to all applications . . .

Trim, weight and prop are HUGE . . .
 

wca_tim

Lieutenant Commander
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May 28, 2007
Messages
1,708
Re: *Cheap* Horse power Gains? Not Really

I see it, point taken. I should also have noted that a good bit of my learning in this area was either directly from some of the posts by you two, John S. Bond-O, and others. Especially some of those by 45auto and his series of posts related to hull design, horsepower and speed, etc... with plots to illustrate. Thanks to all both for info, good questions, and especially patience...

I should also note that with one of my current boats, and older 17 1/2 foot checkmate I'm using to experiment / play / learn with... I went from 50 mph (spedo) (from po) with a 1988 4.3 2bbl, to 55-56 mph (GPS) or so with a new, same bottom end, vortec heads, 4bbl carb and aluminum intake) engine (the original was trashed when I got the hull), to 60 mph (GPS) with attention to detail, tuning and minor mods, to more recently a "mild", but very carefully built stroker small block (400+ peak horsepower at 5300-5500 rpms, mild torque down low to be easy on the drive, idles with a significant lope, but at 500-600 rpm without dying when shifting into gear). Performance so far is much better with 1.81 gear ratio (and 29" prop) over a 1.47 (and 21" - 23" props)... I'm thinking once I get a few mph faster by optimizing the current set-up, I may do better on top end with a 1.65 gear... probably next year, I want to pick up the few tools I don't have and build that drive myself, maybe shorteing the lower a few inches in the process. having too much fun boating (and spending too much of the play budget on gas) to spend the time and money to mess with it much more this year...
 

mcleaves

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Sep 15, 2003
Messages
521
Re: *Cheap* Horse power Gains? Not Really

Just want to say I am glad these horses get beaten from time to time. I love to learn more about this stuff..

M
 

Mischief Managed

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Re: *Cheap* Horse power Gains? Not Really

Crap, just couldn't resist any longer!



Absolute??? What does that mean? Power is a derived unit. It?s defined as the time rate at which work is done or energy emitted or transferred. If you want to describe it in mathematical terms (a real world application of calculus!!), POWER is the derivative of work with respect to time, just like velocity is the time derivative of position and acceleration is the time derivative of velocity.

ENERGY is defined as the ability to do work. Horsepower has NOTHING to do with the ability to do work. It only quantifies the RATE at which work could be done. Kind of like knowing that you?re going 30 MPH (time derivative of position) tells you nothing about where you are UNLESS you know where you started from and how long you?ve been going 30 MPH.

A 50 HP engine can potentially do much more work than a 500 HP engine. It depends only on the amount of energy (fuel) each one has available. Would you rather be heading for Niagra Falls in a 500 HP boat with no fuel or a 50 HP boat with full tanks? According to your definition, the 500 HP boat has the ability to do more work so it should be able to get away from the falls easier!!

This link has a pretty good explanation of what energy is:

http://www.montereyinstitute.org/co...nce/course files/readings/2a_FlowofEnergy.pdf

I think you're confusing yourself with WORK, ENERGY, and POWER. They're not the same thing.



ENERGY is defined as the ability to do work. If you want to know how much work something can do you need to know how much energy it has. For example, gasoline contains chemical energy. One gallon of gas contains about 35 kilowatt-hours of energy. 35 KWH is about 47 HP-hours (notice how you have to have the time unit in there to define the ability to do work (energy) in HP. That?s because when you take the time derivative of energy to get power, the time goes away. That leaves the power unit). That means if you had a 100% efficient motor, a gallon of gas would put out 47 HP for an hour. Or 94 HP for ? hour. Or 23 HP for 2 hours. All of these are doing the exact same amount of work. In reality, a gasoline engine is about 20% efficient. 80% of the energy in that gallon of gas goes into waste heat. So instead of getting 47 HP-hours per gallon of gas you really get about 10. That?s where the rule of thumb to divide an engine?s max HP by 10 to determine max fuel flow comes from. For example, a 100 HP engine will use about 10 gallons per hour at Wide Open Throttle (when it?s putting out 100 HP).

If you want to know how fast something can do work, then you need to know how much POWER it has. A 5 HP boat with 5 gallons of gas has the ability to do INFINITELY more work than a 500 HP boat with no gas (since the 500HP motor can do no work at all) (I know, I?m simplifying, ignoring potential, kinetic, etc. energy ? I?m assuming you aren?t going to shove the 500 HP motor over a cliff or something).

POWER is defined as the time rate at which work is done or energy is transferred. That?s why HP is a useful term, it tells you HOW FAST a motor can do work. A 500 HP motor and a 50 HP motor can do the same amount of work given equal efficiency and equal energy (fuel), the 500HP motor can just do it in 1/10 the time of the 50HP motor.

If you think this is confusing, just wait until we bring TORQUE into the discussion!!

Sorry, couldn?t resist!!! :)

PS to Danond: I brought my umbrella and rainsuit!


What I meant by "absolute" was that it does not need further explanation. It's elegant in its simplicity and unlike torque (when discussing engines) has no ambiguity. You were able to somehow bring fuel capacity into the discussion (I stopped reading at that point), so much for elegant simplicity...
 

45Auto

Commander
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Re: *Cheap* Horse power Gains? Not Really

What I meant by "absolute" was that it does not need further explanation. It's elegant in its simplicity and unlike torque (when discussing engines) has no ambiguity.

We make a 1000 HP motor where I work. Drives a turbopump. Think it would really be practical in a boat??? No ambiguity there, to most people 1000 HP would be much preferable to anything less as long as the price is equal.

It makes absolutely NO torque (therefore no horsepower) until almost 20,000 RPM. Full power at just over 22,000. Has to be spin-started up to 20,000 RPM.

I guess you could put it in a boat. You tow the boat up to about 95 MPH till the motor starts making power, then you could cut it loose and top out about 100 MPH. Slow down below 95 and it would just stop in the water.

Who needs that torque stuff?? :)

Sorry I can't help you with the "elegance" and feel good stuff. Unless you're willing to put in the effort to understand the difference between work, energy, and power you're going to be pretty confused and might as well NOT read anything that might enlighten you! :)
 

85_celebrity

Cadet
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Oct 2, 2007
Messages
28
Re: *Cheap* Horse power Gains? Not Really

HP = how fast you are going when you hit the shoreline
Torque = how far you go on shore.
 

Howard Sterndrive

Rear Admiral
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Re: *Cheap* Horse power Gains? Not Really

hey celeb, tagging onto a 8 month old thread as "windy" as this one is kinda harsh..

can a mod please lock this one - tks.
 
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