chewing up piston rings

Status
Not open for further replies.

racerone

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
39,225
Was at a dealer yesterday.----Was given a box full of V-4 crossflow parts.---Block , crankshaft , 4 good rods with damaged pistons. starter , carburetors , electronics. ---Seems it had been rebuilt already and they did not want to do it again.
 

emdsapmgr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Messages
11,551
I've trashed a V6 before. My early years. Broken rings just like yours. No warning horn and engine was running normal temps on my gauge. My point is that if the cooling system is running normally, the overhot internal piston temps inside the combustion chamber won't always generate a hot horn in the control box. Meaning that a lean condtion (creates heat enough to fail a piston) may not go high enough on the cyl head to hit 212 degrees-the warning horn activation point. My engine failed due to a significant carbon buildup on the piston skirt. It became so thick, that it prevented the incoming fuel/oil from reaching the rings-to lube them and keep them cool. Resulted in a high speed overheat lockup-and cracked rings, broken block. So, the overheating is not just powerhead cooling, it's also the incoming shortage of cooling fuel/lube to cool the underside of the piston and ringsets. A primary reason then that only one piston fails is that it could be starving for fuel due to a fuel restriction in the carb. A classic example of why you do frequent de-carbs on crossflows. What do the pistons skirts look like? Had the jet backed out such that it restricted flow?
 

rustybeater

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Messages
48
Emdsapmgr ok thanks for explaining it to me. I am not really familiar with 2 stroke motors. I do see what you are saying about not getting a temperature warning. I have not had time to pull the pistons out, I am hoping to have time this weekend. I will let you know what they look like and I will post the pictures. As far as the carbs they look good. the high speed jet was seated properly and did not appear to be gummed up.

Racerone This weekend I plan on putting the measurements of the cylinders and the pistons. hopefully this will let me know if I need to replace all 4 of the pistons. Or if I need to bore the cylinders 20 or 30 over. I know I am going to have to take it to a machine shop because I can catch my nail on the wall in the bad cylinder.

Thanks everyone for all the help. I am just afraid of rebuilding the motor and having it happen again (this is already the second time)
 

rustybeater

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Messages
48
No Title

here is a picture of what the water jackets in the head. they dont look to bad (for salt water) I have not cleaned them up so there is gasket material stuck to them. Attached are also some pictures of the skirts on the pistons. I also took a picture of the measurements of the piston skirts. Right no I am unable to take a measurement of the cylinders. I am going to have to get a tool to do it. Oh and piston 1 (the bad one) is a 30 over piston. It has been in there since I bought the boat.
 

Attachments

  • photo220436.jpg
    photo220436.jpg
    76.8 KB · Views: 0
  • photo220437.jpg
    photo220437.jpg
    190.9 KB · Views: 0
  • photo220438.jpg
    photo220438.jpg
    77.1 KB · Views: 0
  • photo220439.jpg
    photo220439.jpg
    176.1 KB · Views: 0
  • photo220440.jpg
    photo220440.jpg
    59.5 KB · Views: 0
Last edited:

emdsapmgr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Messages
11,551
The head water passages look good! Esp for a saltwater engine. The piston also looks good. No carbon around the piston skirt nor around the ringsets. I am looking at the middle and last piston pic. The locating pin in the second (lower) ring groove is visibly in place. In looking at the first pic, (with the damaged ring) I'm not sure that the pin in in place in the upper groove. I see something there, but maybe it's just a hole. I also see a new cut groove just above where the pin should be. Maybe you can confirm if that locating pin is still in place. If that pin loosens and falls out, the upper ring can rotate on the piston. If it rotates too much, the ring ends can eventually catch on the ports and break up. That type of failure is not related to overheat, or fuel starvation at all.
 

rustybeater

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Messages
48
Yeah, you cant really tell from the picture but all of the locating pins are in place. there is a groove cut in just above the the locating pin in the bad piston though.
 

rustybeater

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Messages
48
No Title

Ok, so I measured the cylinder bores today. attached is a picture of what I got. i was using a telescopic t bore gauge so there may be a little play in the numbers but the best I could do. the number 1 cylinder is the best one and that is the one that chewed the rings. still not sure what i should do. I think I am going to take the block to our local machine shop and have him double check the cylinders to make sure they are round. and see what they can do about the bad cylinder. [h=1][/h]
 

Attachments

  • photo220663.jpg
    photo220663.jpg
    71.3 KB · Views: 0

emdsapmgr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Messages
11,551
I'm quoting from my1990 factory manual. Likely the figures are the same for your year. Block bore size. 3.500 inches nominal. Actual bore tolerance: 3.4995-3.5005". Standard pistons: 3.4930-3.4950"
 

racerone

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
39,225
Those measurements indicate a badly worn block.---Needs complete rebore / replacement.----Way too much slop in pistons leads to broken rings as noted in post # 2.
 
Last edited:

rustybeater

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Messages
48
thanks a lot for the help! I am taking it to a machine shop today to look into going 20 over on all cylinders with a re-sleeve on cylinder number 2.
 

rustybeater

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Messages
48
well I called our local Johnson/evinrude shop and they say that they don't even rebuild these motors because they are prone to "coking" which they say usually happens on the starboard cylinders number 1 and 3. They say I would be better off just getting something different. I asked if there is anything I can do to try to prevent this and they said to try to bevel the ports in the cylinders and to run the timing at 24 degrees instead of 28. But he said that may prolong it a little but they are prone to this. What is your opinions of this?

Oh on my previous reply it was suppose to say re-sleeve cylinder number 1
 
Last edited:

emdsapmgr

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Messages
11,551
These engines are prone to coking. So, you can do the two things I do on my V4. Run the Evinrude XD50 oil all the time (has the carbon guard additive.) Every 2 years I run a can of Bombardier Engine Tuner through the engine for good measure. You will get many years of good service out of that block if you just take care of it. I would not shy away from rebuilding-sometimes it is actually a lower cost alternative than a newer engine and controls.
 

rustybeater

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jun 26, 2011
Messages
48
Ok, so the block is at the machine shop and he double checked my measurements and the cylinders are worn beyond limits. So the plan is to bore 3 of the cylinders 20 over and the one cylinder that is already 30 to 40 over and running weisco pistons. Everything that I check says it is ok to run 1 piston larger than the others. Now here is my question do I need to re jet the carb to a bigger jet to help get my fuel to the cylinders to help keep it cool?
 

88olympic

Seaman Apprentice
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Messages
32
I have the same problem on a 1988 88hp. I took the exhaust cover off to fix a leak and tool a look at the pistons and ex. ports. Wow, #3 has cracks in the webs between the ports and the piston is pitted real bad. Funny thing it ran perfect before I took it apart. Not going to put any money in it. Will just put it together and see how long it will last. I could put a .015" feeler gauge between the ring and groove, that kinda scares me.



MOD EDIT - HIJACK. Old thread. Read the Help Tip on top of the page.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

racerone

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
39,225
I do not believe it ran " perfect "-------It just sounded perfect to you !
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top