Convert "points" system???

[JustJason]

Re: Convert "points" system???

There is no doubt that it starts way quicker and runs way smoother, especially on a cold start where the car has been sitting for long periods of time.

Thats probably because the points get glazed/filmed over when they sit for a long time.

"Test results show the Ignitor delivers twice the voltage to the spark plugs,

The only thing more voltage really does for you is allow you to run a wider plug gap. Which in itself really doesn't mean to much unless your building race motors. Almost all factory ignition systems are more than adequate.

Unless I missed it, have never seen the "accessory position" on a switch.It`s Off-Run-Start

Probably an automotive/universal keyswitch.


Here is something I did if it helps anybody in a similar situation.

I had a customer a while back that would leave his radio on, his gps/fishfinder, VHF and a few other accesories on all the time when he parked the boat. His battery would always go dead. He didn't like the fact that he had to power up and down all the accesories individually (older gentleman, intimitaded by the technology and all the "buttons and dials") So I made it simple. I installed a fuse panel, a couple of relays, and an another ignition keyswitch right below the original keyswitch that switched power for everything else. When he parked the boat he turned 1 keyswitch to turn the engine off, and the other keyswitch to turn off everything else. It kept it K.I.S.S. for his particular situation.

 

[vithang]

Re: Convert "points" system???

hi,
I pretty new at this, but can someone patient enough to explan what is "points" system and converting to electornic?
thanks,

 

[Peaceful Pirate]

Re: Convert "points" system???

Why so much resistance to change? JustJason makes an excellent point in that just because the boat builder and/or the power plant maker only installed one ignition switch, maybe in a given circumstance installing a second switch might solve a concern for the boat owner and make his/her experience on the water better.

To say that since points and carbs have been around for so long, we should hang in there overlooks the fact that if they were ?the best? option, engines today would not be made with EFI or computer controlled ignition. If we followed that logic, we would all still be rowing wooden canoes ? After all, the paddle still works, doesn?t it? And it really is a lot less complicated that a mechanical carburetor!

 

[fishrdan]

Re: Convert "points" system???

A complete 4cyl Delco EST ignition (distributor, cap, rotor, wires, wiring, instructions, etc) can be had for $200, so is the the Pertronix Igninitor II module actually "good deal" at $100-120???

The only reason I can see to go with the Pertronix is so you can swap back to points if the module burns out, but the only ignition modules I have ever burned out have been aftermarket ignition modules,,, Mallory . I've never had a problem with OEM modules, though I'm sure it can happen.

 

[mcleaves]

Re: Convert "points" system???

A complete 4cyl Delco EST ignition (distributor, cap, rotor, wires, wiring, instructions, etc) can be had for $200, so is the the Pertronix Igninitor II actually "good deal" at $100-120???

The only reason I can see to go with the Pertronix is so you can swap back to points if the module burns out, but the only ignition modules I have ever burned out have been aftermarket ignition modules. I've never had a problem with OEM modules, though I'm sure it can happen.

I did the Pertronix conversion and while I was tracking down a problem was able to swap back to points on the water during a trial. Problem was NOT the Pertronix system, but I wanted it out of the equation since I made several changes at once.

Point is it's VERY easy to swap back in a few minutes.

Damn fuel hose clamps

 

[fishrdan]

Re: Convert "points" system???

That is an added benefit to the Pertronix.

But, is that little module worth $100+,,, when you can buy a complete EST ignition for $200?

 

[mcleaves]

Re: Convert "points" system???

Worked like a charm for me. All i can say is it's the one I ran and I was more than happy I did.

 

[PiratePast40]

Re: Convert "points" system???

hi,
I pretty new at this, but can someone patient enough to explan what is "points" system and converting to electornic?
thanks,

In the "Must Have Technical Information for DIYer's" section above, there is an explanation of the points system section - #16. Numbers 17 and 18 apply as well. It's helped many of us get a better grip on how the system works. Again, thanks to the contributors.

The Petronics and Hot Spark brands of conversion systems basically replace the points with a magnetic pickup. Since the points are basically an on/off switch, the kit replaces the mechanical switch with an electronic counterpart.

 

[fishrdan]

Re: Convert "points" system???

Worked like a charm for me. All i can say is it's the one I ran and I was more than happy I did.

Oh, I'm not saying the Pertronix was a bad choice for your application. The V8 EST would have run $300 and I don't think I could bring myself to spend the extra $200, unless other components were bad.

I'm just trying to point out that the Delco EST might be a better choice for someone looking to upgrade to an electronic ignition (OP's 4cyl OMC) since the entire 4cyl EST ignition can be purchased for $200. Opposed to $100+ for the Pertronix module, $20 wires, $20 cap, $10 rotor and using the old (and worn out?) distributor body and coil. The EST could cost less in the long run.

 

[Glastron_V210]

Re: Convert "points" system???

And how are you going to run the est advance signal. all the ests I've seen, except the early early HEIs needed the ecm to provide an advance signal...that is the idea of the ignition in the first place...set the base ignition advance, then the ecm modifies it to produce overall advance based on map/rpm/iat etc.

Anyway, if there is a way to get advance without it I would like to know.

My own 350 has an HEI dist. which is one of the old pre est ones and works great!

BTW, as far as spark goes, if you believe the spark gurus (And I tend to), the real thing you want is spark energy, which varies as the square of the current in the coil primary. It gets complicated fom there. It could be in some cases the pertronix unit will reduce the spark energy, but it will be very consistent over time, whereas wear on the points may produce a betrer spark initially, but degrade over time.

More about spark energy:

The inductance in the coil creates a linear (imagine a ramp) increase in current when the points or pertronix is closed. The slope of the ramp increases for increased voltage and increases for a smaller inductance.

With points, the only limit to the current peak is the amount of parisitic resistance in the primary circuit, and the time befroe the points open again. With the HEI and most electronic ignitions, there is a maximum current limit at which the current inthe coil will go no higher. As you can see, this means theoretically the coil energy can be greater with a points system.

However, what everyone wants is a good spark at high rpm. At high rpm the length of time for the coil current to build is smaller due to the points opening quicker. This means the coil has build less current, and less energy is delivered to the plug. The fix is to get a 'flame thrower' or similar coil, which has a lower inductance, allowing the current to build more quickly. At high rpm the spark will be better than before, but at lower rpm it may actually be weaker, because as we lower the inductance, the same current contains less energy. So the best combo at high rpm is a low inductance coil, and a high current threshold electronic ignition (To avoid possible mechanical delays from points inertia at high speed).

Long story short, we operate at 5krpm, which is NOT high speed. So it's all, um , pointless?

Ha ha.

C

 

[fishrdan]

Re: Convert "points" system???

And how are you going to run the est advance signal.

Anyway, if there is a way to get advance without it I would like to know.

The Delco Voyager EST is a self contained ignition system, with all the electronics that control timing built into the distributor. No need to connect it to an EMC for timing since the distributor handles the timing and spark advance curve.

I had my Mercruiser 140HP engine with an EST dizzy running on the ground (to break in the cam) and only had to jumper 1 ignition wire to 12V to get the ignition firing and engine running. Then jumper some other wires to time the engine, 1 of them is used for the shift interrupt switch.

Will a Delco Voyager EST work with a fuel injected engine? I don't know, but kind of doubt it since it does not connect to the ECM.

 

[Glastron_V210]

Re: Convert "points" system???

Sounds like it would fit the bill alright.

I've seem similar electronic setups for Harleys which determine the rpm internally by counting pulses and set the advance acordingly.

That means the rpm vs advance 'map' would use rpm only, which is probably fine. Unless it has a connection for vaccuum which would be even better.

Anyway, sound like a better soution than pertronix, which uses the existing distributor mechanical/vaccuum advance system.

C

 

[Glastron_V210]

Re: Convert "points" system???

1 more thing...I'm sure the your dist would work with efi, the ecm just wouldn't control the ignition, so you couldn't tune it, or use it for knock detection retard etc...but I'm sure it would work.


C

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Convert "points" system???

That means the rpm vs advance 'map' would use rpm only, which is probably fine. Unless it has a connection for vaccuum which would be even better.

C

Not on a boat. Boats never use vacuum to determine advance.

 

[Glastron_V210]

Re: Convert "points" system???

Ok, that seems to follow. I found this:

http://reviews.ebay.com/HEI-Ignitions-A-primer_W0QQugidZ10000000002053885

Interesting reading. I see a reference to your dist. I'm not sure you are right to call it an est dist., but its just semantics.

Not sure why you wouldn't want to use vaccuum on a boat, it probably just isn't necessary because in the steady state a certain rpm will give you a certain load when in gear? Perhaps it's that the marine engine is pretty well always loaded up.

Comments?


C

 

[fishrdan]

Re: Convert "points" system???

I'm not sure you are right to call it an est dist., but its just semantics.

Twasn't me that named it...

http://www.michiganmotorz.com/3.0L+Delco+Voyager+EST+marine+electronic+distributor+kit

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Convert "points" system???

.....Not sure why you wouldn't want to use vaccuum on a boat, ......

Vacuum drawn from the intake/carburation sources could contain gas fumes. If a vacuum advance diaphragm were to rupture, those fumes could enter the distributor on deceleration and as you can imagine, combined with the spark of the points, go BOOM?

 

[Lou C]

Re: Convert "points" system???

As far as reliability of points vs electronic...electronic 'should' be more reliable because you don't have the wear factor of the rubbing block which rides on the dist cam and then your point gap gets smaller which causes the dwell angle to change (get larger) over time which affects the spark....but in cars I have had...and I had 2 cars with points back in the old days...I only had one breakdown that was attributed to the points system (failed condenser on my 65 VW Beetle). No other breakdowns related to points...we changed em once a year at tune up time. Don't have to do that with electronic. We also had a 78 Pontiac LeMans with the old style Delco HEI that broke down twice because of module problems...and a 75 Olds same thing...one failure to start because of the module (easy fix)....So with electronic you get more consistent performance and very little maintenance. But with a dog clutch sterndrive...I'd rather have the factory ESA system working as designed....shifting problems with I/Os are a lot more common than ignition problems and are a safety concern if the boat won't come out of gear easily when docking....So I kept the points and check the gap, dwell, timing and idle speed at the start of each season. NO big deal for a half way decent old school mechanic....

 

[JustJason]

Re: Convert "points" system???

If a vacuum advance diaphragm were to rupture, those fumes could enter the distributor on deceleration and as you can imagine, combined with the spark of the points, go BOOM?

What??????????????????????????? Whose arse did you find that one hiding in?

Boats don't use vacuum advance because big old lopey camshafts don't make for good intake vacuum at idle. Vacuum advance in itself is an oxymoron. Its vacuum that keeps the ignition from advancing, and when the vacuum goes down (on acceration), ignition then advances.