crimping or soldering

beniam

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
113
Due to a recent interest insoldering vs crimping,I surveyed the literature and came to the following observations:<br /><br />All enclosures in corrosive environments should be corrosion resistant.<br /><br />All submerged boats should be equipped with waterproof electrical connections.<br /><br />Copper wire should be tin coated.<br /><br />All corrosive environments are outside of New Mexico.<br /><br />Electrical solder is 63% tin and 37% lead.<br /><br />49.8% of respondents believe in soldering.<br /><br />29.3% of the respondents believe in crimping.<br /><br />12.3% of the respondents believe a bigger hammer is better.<br /><br />.08 of the respondents believe in using parts # 19221-Oxxx or # 19218-OOxx.<br /><br />39.2% of the respondents dont have enough money to buy crimping tools.<br /><br />68.3% of the respondents shop at Wallmart.<br /><br />There is no salt water in New Mexico<br /><br />Any respondents living within a 206.7 mile distance of Roswell NM should be regarded as having had contact with space aliens and approached with caution.<br /><br />12.8% of the respondents believe cheaper is better.<br /><br />43.7% of the respondents believe that spending less will save you money.<br /><br />183.4% of the respondents expressed either happiness or unhappiness with the issue at hand.<br /><br />I believe this survey is accurate by generally accepted accounting practices in the State of Texas. <br /><br />Have a happy April first.<br /><br />Batavier
 

jtexas

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Messages
8,646
Re: crimping or soldering

Originally posted by batavier:<br /> I believe this survey is accurate by generally accepted accounting practices in the State of Texas. <br /><br />Have a happy April first.<br /><br />Batavier
You really do care - I'm touched. :cool:
 

jlinder

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jul 5, 2004
Messages
1,086
Re: crimping or soldering

batavier,<br /><br />Great compilation of data.<br /><br />However I have an argument that we need at least 100 postings to clear up. <br /><br />My computations give 183.6% of the respondents epressing either happiness or unhappiness with the issue at hand, not the 183.4% you report.
 

crab bait

Captain
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
3,831
Re: crimping or soldering

either way,, you still have to crimp .. solder alone is illeagle..
 

Realgun

Commander
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
2,484
Re: crimping or soldering

Actually there is Salt water in New Mexico! But you have to have a well to get it. :( some is 30 times as salty as the ocean.
 

demsvmejm

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
831
Re: crimping or soldering

Originally posted by crab bait:<br /> either way,, you still have to crimp .. solder alone is illeagle..
I believe that would be a sick bird you're talking about crab bait. :D :D :D <br /><br />I've seen several references to soldered connections alone being illegal. Where is this written? Please be specific. I researched the USCG articles and could only find reference to connectins must be either or. Ther ewas no reference for pleasure craft, or smaller commercial craft indicating the requirement of a crimped connection.
 

kesso

Seaman
Joined
Oct 3, 2004
Messages
58
Re: crimping or soldering

Crimp pins for connectors and solder anything else. <br /><br />I've never seen wires joined DIRECTLY by crimps on any USN ship; however crimping a wire for subsequent insertion into a terminal block would be considered acceptable.<br /><br />Soldering has a NASA standard. Crimping two wires together is for unregulated shonkey backyard work, i generally crimp......
 

crab bait

Captain
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
3,831
Re: crimping or soldering

Originally posted by kesso:<br /> Crimp pins for connectors and solder anything else. <br /><br />I've never seen wires joined DIRECTLY by crimps on any USN ship; <br /><br />Soldering has a NASA standard. Crimping two wires together ......
SEE.. i told you's i wouldn't even think of takin' my boat to the moon without soldered crimped connections..
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: crimping or soldering

Originally posted by kesso:<br /> <br />I've never seen wires joined DIRECTLY by crimps on any USN ship; however crimping a wire for subsequent insertion into a terminal block would be considered acceptable.
I bought a USN vessel. Nothing onboard is soldered.
 

Paul Moir

Admiral
Joined
Nov 5, 2002
Messages
6,847
Re: crimping or soldering

David Moore, I think the belief that soldering alone is against the law comes from ABYC 11.16.3.7 (2003 rules):<br />
11.16.3.7. Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.
ABYC rules, click here.<br /><br />I don't know if the ABYC rules have the force of law in your country. I suspect that it varies from state to state judging by how things usually go down there.<br />Here in Canada, we may follow the ABYC rules as an alternative to our own, but our Small Boat Construction Regs (TP1332E) have this one:<br />
<br />8.7.5.5 <br />Subject to paragraph 8.7.5.6, a soldered connection that is outside a junction box or enclosure shall not be the sole means of connection between two or more conductors, or between a conductor and connector. If the connection is soldered, the connection shall be located or supported to limit the flexing of the conductor where the solder has changed the stranded flexible conductor to a solid conductor.
As you can see, they usually just copy the ABYC rules, using their "own words." :) <br />(Rule 8.7.5.6 is a little funnier...)
 

Ralph 123

Captain
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
3,983
Re: crimping or soldering

We are doomed to repeating this over and over... I think it's either because people have never seen a proper crimp or are too cheap to buy a ratcheting crimper... I don't know but here goes:<br /><br />
<br />Why is crimping preferred over soldering when joining wire to electrical connectors and why do American Boat and Yacht Council Standards specify that solder shall only be used in combination with crimping, except in the case of battery cables? <br /><br />To be sure, this subject still provokes heated discussion, especially among those who see soldering of crimped joints as extra insurance of reliability. Both mechanical and electrical integrity in the marine environment are essential to reliable connections. The crimped joint provides both, if properly done. Reliable crimps require that both wire and connector be of matching sizes, that proper tools are used, and that the materials (wire and connectors) be of marine grade quality to begin with. A combination wire cutter,stripper, and crimper is available at good hardware and marine dealers. The crimping part of the tool actually comprises dies which exert a swaging action on connector and wire, effectively created a "weld". The tool was designed to confine the connector and wire so that the pressure exerted by the die was concentrated at the joint. This is why ordinary pliers are not acceptable. They will crush the connector barrel alright, but both connector and wire will squish out to the side, making a joint which is mechanically weak, and electrically suspect. <br /><br />A good crimping tool will have dies for both insulated and non-insulated connectors in at least three sizes: #8-10, #12-14, and #16-18. it is important to make the crimp with the right die. <br /><br />If you are getting loose connections, or if you see cracks in the connector barrel or insulation, you are using the wrong die. <br /><br />Get a marine rated connector a your dealer's and carefully examine the inside of the barrel which receives the stripped wire. Note the grooving which is designed to grip the wire, preventing stretching, and focus the crimping pressure to effect welding action. The crimp "work hardens" the copper of the connector so that the joint is mechanically sound. <br /><br />Multi-stranded wire is required in marine applications (except when a heavy gauge, well-supported, dressed wire is used solely as a ground bus), made up of fine-stranded(e.g. 30 guage), pre-tinned wire for best results. Automotive hook-up wire is usually not pre-tinned, and bare copper oxidizes (corrodes) in salt air. <br /><br />Once a good electrical/mechanical joint is made, it is essential to protect it from water or moist salt air. The best way to do this now is by using shrink tube insulation, especially the type which includes a heat activated adhesive on the inner surface. The shrink tubing is put on before the crimp is made, of sufficient length to overlap the wire insulation by a 1/2" or so. Application of heat (a heat gun used for striping paint will do) causes the adhesive to liquefy and the tubing to shrink tight to the wire and connector.<br /><br />But soldering is a time-honored method. What's wrong with it now?<br /><br />Good soldering requires a certain technique. A cold soldered joint may be worse than useless, since it may look OK to an unpracticed eye. Good soldering is especially difficult when making up a splice in a confined or limited access space. Using a proper tool, a good crimp is easy.<br /><br />As mentioned, crimping action work hardens the connector barrel, making the joint mechanical strong and stable. If you solder a crimped joint, you may, in heating the connector, soften the copper, making the joint loosen. Now it is the solder only which provides the strength of the joint. But if the joint is subjected to vibration, the solder, in absorbing mechanical energy over a period of time, may crystallize, and the joint may actually fail altogether. <br /><br />Melted solder may flow through "wicking" action up the strands of wire, thus creating a stiff, solid section just behind a terminal. Since the terminal itself is made fast to a post or stud, the place where the solder stiffened section abruptly merges with the stranded, unsoldered wire is relatively unsupported. Vibrational flexing of the wire is concentrated at this interface, leading to hardening, embrittlement, and eventual failure. <br /><br />Contrary to popular belief, solder is not impervious to corrosion. It is a composition of lead and tin. When connected to copper (wire and terminal) in a salt atmosphere, galvanic corrosion can occur, resulting in leaching out of the lead, leaving a powdery residue which is both electrically and mechanically worthless. <br /><br />Whether crimped only or soldered and crimped, protection from salt atmosphere is important. For wiring splices, shrink tubing is the way to go. For terminal strips, the are liquid sealants available which can painted on after a connection is made up. <br /><br />Recently, connectors which incorporate shrink-tube insulation sleeves have been introduced to the consumer marine market. The connector-wire joint is first crimped, thea heat gun is used to seal the connector insulation to the wire cover making a waterproof joint. This would appear to be the best method for making up connections, especially below decks, or in other salt atmosphere spaces. <br /><br />It is rare when convenience and reliability are served by the same process. But crimped connections, properly made up and protected from the environment offer the skipper both ease and dependability. The local yard has even been crimping battery cables for the past several years, using a special swaging tool.
This is what a good crimper looks like:<br />
double_ratchets_tool.jpg
 

bluewater19

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Apr 25, 2003
Messages
505
Re: crimping or soldering

Hi there,<br /> I am just an electronics tech for the united states navy, and while I am no Electronics engineer, we crimp or solder, very rarely do we do both. Most Items(wires) that are screwed into a teminal boards are crimped. Most other items(resisters, diodes, caps ect.) are soldered. That being said on my boat I just twist the wires together and wrap them with tape. Any kind will do. Black tape, duct tape, scotch tape. :D :D :D <br /><br />Seriously, I use solder and adhesive heat shrink on any kind of simple connections that just need corosive protection like wiring a stereo or marine vhf. Just make sure to tie wrap everything to keep the wires from flopping around. Big connetions Like batterey cables and trolling motors I like to use a big fat copper lugs crimped on and then soldered with torch and and heat shrink. <br /><br />I am lucky that I have all the right crimp tools and connectors as well as different soldering units for different jobs,<br />If you don't use the right crimper for the job you might as well be twisting and taping!<br /><br />I think that most of you have the right idea that a good high quality connection is the most important thing.<br /><br />Good luck with all your prjects and remember what my daddy always told me. <br />"when in doubt wire it direct and replace what burns." :eek: :eek:
 

18rabbit

Captain
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
3,202
Re: crimping or soldering

Ralph - there is no reason for you to bring my ex-wife into this...<br /><br />
Ex_Wife_Crimper.jpg
 

crab bait

Captain
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Messages
3,831
Re: crimping or soldering

yeah, that ex wife looks like she could put a hurt'n on ya.. <br /><br />strong jaw an alotta leverage..
 

demsvmejm

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
831
Re: crimping or soldering

I do not want to bore all with replying with a quote, so this is particularly in response to Ralph. First off, I do appreciate and respect your contribution to this debate. I sincerely respect you, and your point of view. However...<br />The quote you provided appears to be a person defending their opinion that crimping is better. And that is all it is, opinion. Just as mine is just opinion. <br />I have four different crimping tools in my tool box for work. I do not have a ratcheting one, I've used them and do not find them easy to use, confidence inspiring or convenient. I mentioned somewhere that I find using the Crimpl-N-Seal connectors that were mentioned in your quote to be difficult. Even using the proper "die" it is easy to cut through the insulation at the crimp. When you do this, the connector is useless for the sealing part. Otherwise I think these terminals are great. :D I use crimp terminals all the time, just not outside a vehicle where they are subject to moisture.<br /><br />The underlying condition to any post where truth and information is provided is a PROPERLY executed connection. This is where a professional is the best bet. If the wires are properly supported, as they should be in a proper installation, then either connection method is acceptable. If a crimp is made properly it is mechanically and electrically sound, as Ralph's quote pointed out. If a solder joint is made properly then it is mechanically sound and secure. The key here is to be educated and patient. Those who think they know it all, or know enough are the ones here who are arguing to the death in defense of their opinion and refuse to accept another's as possibly having merit. These are the ones who are destined to failure. What I mean is, if you are not a professional doing this for a living, trained and equipped to perform these types of repairs, ASK!!!! and LISTEN!!!!!! <br />It's a little different in person, but nothing P/O's me more than someone who asks me for advice or directions and then argues with me. I've sent many a person off to get lost this way. I just stop arguing and agree with them, even though I know they need to go North and their route is Southbound :( . The same goes true for mechanical advice, I have turned away many a job to protect my reputation and integrity. Sometimes cheap and easy aren't <br />I don't believe I've ever said that a crimped joint was wrong. I just pointed out the weak points of a crimped joint, as others have about a soldered joint. I've used Solid-Seal (self-soldering/self-sealing) butt connectors on almost every exterior connection I've made in the last five years and have never had to repair a circuit at the connection. I've repaired the circuit at a crimped joint that wasn't properly sealed when the customer thought he'd save some money by doing it himself. Pay me now, or pay me later. :mad: I don't like taking peoples' money, I just repair what's wrong and try to charge a fair price.
 

Ralph 123

Captain
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Messages
3,983
Re: crimping or soldering

David, it's an article written for some boating mag by the author and <br />
Lysle Gray, Technical Director, ABYC, Paul Michalczyk of ANCOR Marine, and Jim Vaughn of FTZ Industries, all experts in marine wiring, for their consultations in preparing this article.
It seeks to explain why the ABYC does not allow solder only connections and why solder and crimp is not a good idea...<br /><br />For the record, I hold a BSEE and an MSEE and worked in aerospace & Defense for about 10 years. Very rarely did anything we send into space or put on a US Navy ship ever have a solder only connection. I have personally rewired several boats from scratch. I'm not looking to argue with you just trying to show what the industry thinks the best way to go is...that's all
 

Realgun

Commander
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
2,484
Re: crimping or soldering

Well I will chime in too. I will be crimping then heat shrink sealing all connections. Solder might be a good idea but it does heat a connection and could cause problems down the road. <br /><br />>>>I have yet to hear however anyone who has crimped and soldered say well guess what in how many ever years that connection failed. <<<<br /><br />I have to rewire my boat and yes they crimped and thats it but the failure is in the corrosion of the fuseblock/fuse and butt connections neither were sealed or greased. Nore was the wire properly supported. I believe thats the previous owners fault and he was changing cables and never put the support back.
 

chuckz

Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Aug 22, 2004
Messages
625
Re: crimping or soldering

That's because no one has lived long enough to have their solder connection fail :)
 
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