current boat construction standards? engine standards? so confused suddenly

[stackz]

very puzzling to me. I was under the impression that pretty much all new boats constructed recently were all composite? also, I thought pretty much all I/O setups by now were MPI for emissions purposes?

good friend recently bought a 2007 bayliner 237 deck boat. very fun boat, lots of creature comforts and it does 40mph full throttle. first time he had it out though, we stopped and floated for a bit and then when we went to move, it wouldnt start. I was kind of puzzled but regardless, popped the hatch and crawled in there to start looking around. thats when I noticed the flame arrestor was a round carb style. pulled it off and sure enough its a dual TBI type carb....mind you it had several sensors, etc attached to it (probably emissions stuff to help meter the carb somehow) but it still injected fuel venturi style. the ignition was an electronic distributor so I assume its got a brain somewhere for ignition control. just had him put the shifter in full forward and we sat listening to the radio for a minute or two while the flooded cylinders cleared themselves, tossed it back in neutral and it fired right up.

also while in the engine bay I noticed its all blocked up on wood. hell, it even looked to be partical board that was used. like the gas tank had a partical board wall between it and the engine. and there were partical board sheets as other walls in the bilge as well.

I mean it really really looked just like partical board, not even plain sheets of ply. everything was coated in a thick greyish type paint (no clue but very curious what it could be?).

anyway, why do boat makers still put wood in boats as new as this? really has me kind of skeptical about bayliner still (keep reading they are throw-away type boats). also, how can you have ultra low emissions (california standards on the sticker) on a carbed engine? I dont know how the metering works as I've never seen a carb like this but I'm going to look into further.

I mean, I see these boats on boat trader in his condition for $30k...means they must have at least cost $45k+ when new. he only paid $20k for his but I'd have a really hard time in the current day paying $20k for a boat with wood in it...or am I just ignorant?

main reason I ask is I've been to several boat shows lately browsing and asking and pretty much every guy working a booth I talk to says nobody uses wood anymore...but then I see it in a 4 year old boat.

 

[dingbat]

Re: current boat construction standards? engine standards? so confused suddenly

I guess you would be quite surprised to find out how many top of the line boats use wood construction. Why, becouse done right, it's the best material for the job.

I mean it really really looked just like partical board, not even plain sheets of ply. everything was coated in a thick greyish type paint (no clue but very curious what it could be?).

Composites are engineered materials made from two or more constituent materials with significantly different physical or chemical properties which remain separate and distinct on a macroscopic level within the finished structure. Your particleboard coated with a thick greyish type paint would be considered a composite. Remember that the next time you talk with a composite boat salesmen.

 

[ufm82]

Re: current boat construction standards? engine standards? so confused suddenly

TBI, or throttle body injection, has been around for a long time. It is much better than a carb set-up as the fuel flow is much more precisely metered. It is not as efficient as an MPI system but it gives you the benefit of fuel injection at the cost of a carb. It's step from the showerhead for certain. And unless you do something out of the ordinary or have a mechanical issue, "flooding" your engine is nearly impossible.
And as mentioned, wood is still a very common component in boat building. Provided it is done properly, sealed and protected, it can last for a very long time. My boat is a 1993 model and has wood in it and it is still in excellent condition. I can't claim any special care I've given it but the wood has been well encapsulated and protected and shows no signs of degradation. And just because a boat claims "all composite" construction doesn't mean it's indestructible. It can still suffer issues.

UFM82

 

[H20Rat]

Re: current boat construction standards? engine standards? so confused suddenly

So you are confusing terms there... Throttle body injection (TBI) is absolutely not a carb in any shape way or form. Its a typical throttle body that has 1 or a couple big injectors in it. The manifold behind it still needs to be a wet manifold, as a dry manifold isn't designed to flow fuel. But, as of 2007 you could still buy a carbed boat...

Boat technology lags behind auto many years, and other than emissions, carbs do have some advantages in a boat setup. Far less electronics to go wrong, and marine environments tend to eat electronics for breakfast.

And yes, there are still boats that use wood, more than people would realize. (if you have wood encapsulated in fiberglass to form stringers or decking, its still wood construction, even if you can't see it) As long as maintenance is kept up it really isn't a problem.

(I see ufm82 typed it out quicker that I did! Got interrupted by a phone call, otherwise I probably would have hit submit first!)

 

[Bamaman1]

Re: current boat construction standards? engine standards? so confused suddenly

1. Mercury only makes changes when (a.) the market place (competition) forces them to change and (b) the governmental regulations force change.
2. Mercruiser is still using carbs up through their 5.0 TKS (Turn Key Start.) It has an electric fuel pump and an electronic carb that's supposed to start it without having to give it gas.
3. Chipboard is an improvement for Bayliners. Last time I looked at the upholstery, they were using foam instead of plywood under the seats. Bayliner is now a less exclusive brand than what they originally were--an understatement. They look good from a distance, however.

 

[oldjeep]

Re: current boat construction standards? engine standards? so confused suddenly

also while in the engine bay I noticed its all blocked up on wood. hell, it even looked to be partical board that was used. like the gas tank had a partical board wall between it and the engine. and there were partical board sheets as other walls in the bilge as well.

I mean it really really looked just like partical board, not even plain sheets of ply. everything was coated in a thick greyish type paint (no clue but very curious what it could be?).

main reason I ask is I've been to several boat shows lately browsing and asking and pretty much every guy working a booth I talk to says nobody uses wood anymore...but then I see it in a 4 year old boat.

The thick grayish paint is over the fiberglass that encases the wood, and its not particle board.

Believing what some guy working in a booth at a boat show says is something you might want to stop doing

 

[stackz]

Re: current boat construction standards? engine standards? so confused suddenly

sorry for the misnomer guys. I know its not a TBI setup, just the easiest early-morning-before-coffee term I could think of lol. Its definitely a 2-bbl carb. I saw the venturis and watched it squirt the fuel as carbs do. I guess it just threw me off as I've never seen a carb with so many sensors on it is all. sounds just like #2 on bamaman's post.

so the partical board looking stuff isnt actually partical board? what is it? like a chopped up composite material that is sandwiched together like partical board?

and yeah, I'm going to have to start doubting sales guys from now on though at least I know the whaler guys were telling the truth considering they had one of their boats cut in half on display showing no wood.

 

[roscoe]

Re: current boat construction standards? engine standards? so confused suddenly

Probably 80-90% of the boats being built, have some wood in them.

Some boats are made entirely of wood.

Wood is much cheaper and usually lighter than any alternative.

 

[QC]

Re: current boat construction standards? engine standards? so confused suddenly

Answer to all questions: Sell - cost = profit

They pic the price point (sell) then minimize cost to maximize profits at that price point.

Bayliner = entry level in most cases. Entry level means low price point, means low cost to be profitable. Cost includes any regulatory requirements. If you want to command a higher price for the MPI unit in the SeaRay then you must have something less attractive to price higher from. Voila . . . Carb . . .

 

[oldjeep]

Re: current boat construction standards? engine standards? so confused suddenly

If you want to command a higher price for the MPI unit in the SeaRay then you must have something less attractive to price higher from. Voila . . . Carb . . .

Honestly in terms of a boat, I'd rather have the carb than a computer and all the related electronics

 

[stackz]

Re: current boat construction standards? engine standards? so confused suddenly

Honestly in terms of a boat, I'd rather have the carb than a computer and all the related electronics

true. compression, timing, spark, fuel. thats pretty much the core checklist for a carb engine.

so much simpler than if the electronics corrode and cause huge gremlins.

I still remember growing up and my dad's old 4-banger mercruiser crapped out on us. he jumps in and is pushing it down a mud bank while my grandpa uses his test light, determines the main 12v+ to the engine has apparently gone bad and just rips out a wire for the horn and runs a wire from the battery to the coil and we crank back up and are on our way.

 

[QC]

Re: current boat construction standards? engine standards? so confused suddenly

I'll bet more boats are towed due to issues with Carbs than EFI of any type . . . Yes, anybody with a little knowledge could probably get the Carbed boat going, but I bet the numbers still favor EFI for reliability. Just sayin'

 

[H20Rat]

Re: current boat construction standards? engine standards? so confused suddenly

I'll bet more boats are towed due to issues with Carbs than EFI of any type . . . Yes, anybody with a little knowledge could probably get the Carbed boat going, but I bet the numbers still favor EFI for reliability. Just sayin'

As much as I want to disagree, have to agree! Even with age, EFI tends to win out. My winter hobby are snowmobiles. I will never own another carb'ed sled. EFI's, even older efi's, tend to be very reliable, and just as easy if not easier than a carb to diagnose. Sleds are just as tough if not worse on components than a typical marine environment. (you are pulling the sleds on an open trailer in winter, with road salt blasting through the open hood vents hoods)

Of course, back to the marine world... The EFI gear I've played with seems finicky at best, and is closer to an adaptation from the auto side. Sled EFI systems are 100% potted and sealed in epoxy. You can submerge the computer in 100 feet of water and it wouldn't care.

 

[sw33ttooth]

Re: current boat construction standards? engine standards? so confused suddenly

i would say almost all boats would have some sort of wood in the bilge area if weather if be part of the engine mounts with epoxy or stringers to hold the fiberglasses shape. the cheapest things in the world are made from the cheapest sht the company can get to call it good enough. right now i have wooden floors on a 91 four winns, future plans to fiberglass it and put in snap-in carpet it will look better and i wont have to grunge my face when my nefew runs in the boat with 40 gallons of water on him.

i learned a salesmen trick looking at some campers with my dad, a really good salesmen told us that certain brand campers use partical board and that the brand he was selling used real solid plywood and then he went over to the cupboards and preceded to do some chin ups. just a hint when buying something dont just ask the salesmen that is selling his product how he likes it, ask him what he thinks of other brands and how there made.

 

[haulnazz15]

Re: current boat construction standards? engine standards? so confused suddenly

I'll be getting a Cobalt for my next boat. No wood anywhere. The premium isn't worth it to some, but I'll bet those mid-2000's Cobalts will be around for a long time with no wood to replace/rot.