Democracy in Iraq

[CJY]

Will it help the US?

 

[heycods]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

Will it hurt the US?

 

[JB]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

The expectation is that in a democratic Iraq people will be empowered to run their country rather than leaving it to a dictator or a church.<br /><br />Empowered people are far less likely to be discontent and looking for scapegoats.<br /><br />Empowered people are envied. Their neighbors will say, "I want some of that, too!"<br /><br />There is no guarantee that a democratic Iraq would be friendly to the USA, but it is sure that they will be less likely to engage in imperial war and would mind their own business rather than defying the world on international issues.

 

[DJ]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

There is no guarantee that a democratic Iraq would be friendly to the USA, but it is sure that they will be less likely to engage in imperial war and would mind their own business rather than defying the world on international issues.<br />

True, but the possibility is very high. It's worth the risk, in my book. We have-NO- chance, the other way.<br /><br />History is a GREAT teacher. We had no chance with western Europe (our ancestors-most of us) in the thirties. We had a great relationship, throughout the 1900's because our efforts.<br /><br />Nothing is forever. Some forget: France, Germany, etc. But Australia nnd GB have been great friends. Our thanks.

 

[badandy]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

good points but are we in this just for our own good? Or is there a bit of humanitarism involved?<br />though hopefully Iraq will be friendly we sure could use some in that area.

 

[DJ]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

good points but are we in this just for our own good?

You bet we are.<br /><br />We, Americans, generally do not "saw off" heads in front of video cameras for "Allah". Nor, do we drive planes into buildings-for Allah.<br /><br />If that's hard to comprehend, than be at peace, for what you believe.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

does that mean if they sell the Iraqi oil to china we can take them out again? if they sell to Russia instead of the west can we topple that govt and install another ?

 

[PW2]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

You've got to be kidding, JB.<br /><br />Democracy set the stage for Adolf Hitler.<br /><br />Iraq is in a civil war, for crying out loud, and no election is going to change that. People don't willingly give up power unless they think there is no other choice. As of now, they still think they have a choice.<br /><br />Iran has a democratically elected leader, who wants a nuke, denies the holocaust happened, and advocates pushing Israel into the sea.<br /><br />Palestine now has a democracy and elected a bunch of terrorists.<br /><br />You folks that somehow think democracy is some sort of panacea need to take the blinders off and join the real world.

 

[12Footer]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

Originally posted by CJY:<br /> Will it help the US?

It might. It holds a better chance of "helping the US" than the sandman's regime held.<br />Why do you ask this question of your fellow forum sages?

 

[JB]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

Depression and despair brought on by defeat in WWI and a punishing treaty set the stage for Hitler, PW2. <br /><br />All he had to do was convince the sheeple that he could fix everything they were suffering and that the government they had previously elected was corrupt and indifferent to their suffering. <br /><br />Sound familiar? "convince the sheeple that the government they had previously elected was corrupt and indifferent . . ." ?? Wonder where Teddy, Hillary & Co. got their ideas?<br /><br />I guess reading 20th Century history is a very different thing than listening to the revisionist rabble rousers.<br /><br />I consider Freedom and Liberty a panacea, PW2. If you think that Iran's and Palestine's versions of "democracy" includes things like a Bill Of Rights for all citizens you are mistaken.

 

[KRS]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

I pray it comes about, and they can be a better people, be an Iraq they can be proud of.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

JB<br /> I gotta differ or maybe expound a bit on your germanic history after WWI, was not the defeat that brought on the despair and depression. it was the repressive and vindictive rules laid down by england, france and the US.<br /> thats why truman did things a bit differently after WWII.<br /> seemed to have worked a little better anyway.<br /> I just wish the policies towards the middle east after WWII and to Africa after WWII had been as kind.<br /> we may not be in the mess we are in, but now its neither here nor there.<br /> but that still does not ansewer the question of if the democratically elected govts in the middle east decide to sell the oil to china and russia instead of the west can we topple that govt and install another ?<br /> is there a precedence for that happening in the past ?

 

[rolmops]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

Please take the blinders off.Democracy is only another tool for those who want to rule.<br />With a clear majority in Iraq for the different religious parties, the next election will change it from a democracy to a theocracy with Sharia law.<br />Everybody in Iraq voted for their clan chieftains who now rule democratically whereas before they ruled by tribal consent.Big deal!!<br />Rodbolt.<br />Did we ever overthrow democratically chosen governments or support the new dictators????<br />Allende was chosen democratically in Chili in '70.<br />Henry Kissinger ordered the CIA to destabilize the government especially after Allende supported a strike in the Anaconda Copper Company(american owned)Afterwards we supported the new dictator who by the way killed a lot of people as a matter of course.Does the name "The School Of The Americas" ring a bell?That is where a cocaine dealing president dictator who overthrew a democratic government in Panama was trained.(He is in prison In Florida now)Or how about the philipines?Remember the lady who loved shoes and her husband?They overthrew a democratic government with our help.Need I go on????

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

wow I forgot about some of that, the school of the americas is a terrorist training camp I am familiar with.<br /> I was wondering more about the nationalizing of oilfields with the threat to sell oil east instead of west.\

 

[JamesFrith]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

I believe it was Benjamin Franklin that said "You can either have peace or you can have freedom, but you cannot have both at the same time."

 

[JB]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

I don't think we disagree, Rodbolt.<br /><br />The depression and despair were the result of the "treaty" of Versailles (sp?) forced on them by the US, France and the UK. They also had an unbelievable inflation. (Can you believe that the price of a loaf of bread, in old marks, weighed more than the bread?)<br /><br />The fact that they had a democratic form was irrelevant. He said, "Give me the power and I will fix it." They believed him and gave him the power. He "fixed" it. The fix turned out to be a lot worse than the problem, as often happens.<br /><br />I think that an economic collapse invariably results in a change in government, sometimes even a change in the form of government. Look what FDR did to us.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

Rodbolt, it doesnt matter where they sell the oil, oil is a world market. They can sell it to China or Russia or France for all I care, as long as they sell it.<br /><br />I would rather have a war with a country that voted for their leaders than a dictatorship. That way, we will be fighting against people who believe in what they are fighting for, rather than people who we should have pity on because they are forced to fight.<br /><br />Ken

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

JB <br /> yep thats about it.<br /> Hitlaer was the greatest thing to hit germany as far as the economy went until about 1936-37, then the slide started.<br /> his military buildup in the guise of air postal service and shipping boosted the economy tremendously. but once he started the buildup he had to do something with it or the economy would collapse again.<br /> that coupled with the fact that,IMHO, he just went nuts and actually believed his own propaganda, a dangerous thing to do even today.<br /><br /> KEN<br /> I disagree completly on your fighting analysis.<br /> in the first gulf war the conscripts were only there cause thay had to be. they surrendered in droves without ever loading their weapons.<br /> thats how a dictaors conscripts fight.<br /> however someone who is fighting,especially on their home turf, that voluntereed and is fighting for his/her version of freedom is almost unbeatable.<br /> that coupled with the fact they have hometown support and the fact they will use gurilla tactics for many years makes it an untenable war.<br /> think about it.<br /> the canuks and the mexies get into a scrap. the canuks luck up and win. as part of the peace treaty they (canuks) give kentuky to the honduras. how long will a kentukian fight a honduran that tries to move in and kick him off his family farm?<br /> and there you have quite a bit of our current mid east issue.

 

[kenimpzoom]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

I disagree rodbolt, yes many conscripts surrendered easy making it look like the war was over, but it wasnt. In the first Iraq war, we felt sorry for them and didnt go in for the kill. In the second Iraq war, they turned and became insurgents.<br /><br />I would rather fight a good fight with a clear winner, than have it drag on forever.<br /><br />Ken

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Democracy in Iraq

but drag on forever it will.<br /> as far as the oil goes I think the daily surplus production is like 50K barrela per day, if china chose to use its world trade credits and offered Iraq,Iran and venezuela 100 doallers per barrel and had it all shipped to china where would that leave the US?<br /> and no we are not fighting elements of the republican guard now, we are fighting a loosly knit coalition of folks with varying agendas, fisrt on the list is to get us out while they retain the power by whatever means nessasary. <br /> on the3 current course our fearless leaders are taking this war could drag on for 8-10 years without letup.<br /> it took this country close to 200 years to achive what democracy we have, why would you think a poor deveoping nation could do it in less ?<br /><br /> wanna bet that if tomorrow we suddenly woke up with a new technology that used seawater as fuel and could power electrical plants and combustion engines that the middle east would become another africa to the US. wanna bet ?<br /><br /> while there would still be a large oil/gas market for the plastic,rubber and petro chemical industies the price of oil would suddenly plummet and we would withdraw and allow them to eat their oil.