Don't raise the minimum wage!!!

woodrat

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Joined
Jul 27, 2004
Messages
949
Re: Don't raise the minimum wage!!!



"I'm done with this thread.......those of you who don't get it, never will."

yep.
 

Haut Medoc

Supreme Mariner
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
10,645
Re: Don't raise the minimum wage!!!

RubberFrog said:
I thought truly unskilled workers were laborers.... dig here... dig there....

[/quote/}
No, I thought it was a pilot...
You know...Pilot here, pilot over there.......:}
 

crunch

Commander
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
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Re: Don't raise the minimum wage!!!

lmao.gif
I know that guy!!!
 

Andrew Leigh

Chief Petty Officer
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Jun 17, 2003
Messages
431
Re: Don't raise the minimum wage!!!

Well where I come from minimum wage is also an issue. Not only do we have a minimum wage but we have negotiated terms that require "blue collar" workers get an additional 2% increase over and above what the average "white collar" workers increase would be. This to redress the wrongs of the past.

It has been said that increasing the minimum wage will reduce crime. Our crime statistics show that this is not the case as a life in crime will exceed minimum wage. In fact crime is on the increase as is the level of violence.

It is common in many societies to find ways to take from the rich and to give to the poor. This discourages the rich from creating further wealth and employment opportunities and encourages them to be less then honest on company returns. Additionally it teaches the poor that it is not your merits that get you ahead but that it is good to penalise the sucessful in your favour.

95% of all labour issues in my business come from those at or around minimum wage level. Theft of company property, abuse of sick leave which to 90% is seen as an entitlement and and extension to annual leave. In fact it has now got to the point that demands are being made company's to increase their social responsibility levels by assisting employees with personal loans and funeral loans. This coupled with constant labour union action trying to regrade jobs to improve the hourly rate get more for the worker is taking significantly more mangement time.

If we have a minimum wage then too we must have a minimum work ethic and efficiency. If I pay you $10 then PRODUCE $10 amount of work. If you want to get ahead then give me $12 in value while I pay you $10 and you will most certainly be earning more in the future. The single largest change you can make to your income is to get promoted.

Currently my experience is that we pay $10 and get $6 in value. They are the last to arrive the first to leave, clock watchers of note, this coupled with all the sick leave, means that the minimum wage is in fact significantly higher than the face value of the hourly rate. We may even pay up to twice the minimum rate if we were to measure it correctly.

Some workers have elected to lift themselves, and through hard work have proved that you can rise above poverty. This hard work has resulted in improved income, the opportunity for advanced training etc. I had a floor sweeper who has risen to a sales position and who earns 8x the minimum wage. Unfortunately this is the exception and not the rule, success has it's price, its called continual consistent and intelligent hard work.

I suppose the single biggest reason for a minimum wage is to ensure that unscrupulous employers do not create "sweat shops".

We need to get out of this "you owe me culture" and move to a more "what can I do to get ahead" culture. We have begun to live in the age of the alibi, it is always someone elses fault for our inabilities and failures.

The single biggest negative for me is that increased employment costs plays right into the hands of the developing giants like China. It is a question of time before many manufacturing countries become traders as we simply will not be able to compete. We are begining to price ourselves out of the market. By way of example. 10 years ago we had 5 manufacturers of small electric motors, we now have none. In fact we are begining to phase out the repair of motors under 50hp as you can buy two Chinese replacements for the same as the local repair costs of one. Oh by the way China now has in excess of 200 motor manufacturers.

Unfortunately this is pure economics. As long as developing countries are prepared to work for lower wages with higher outputs the minimum wage argument becomes irrelevant. Higher wages will lead to uncompetitive product which will lead to loss of business and consequent loss of jobs.

Having said all that I am in favour of a minimum wage but believe that it should be structured differently with a larger portion of the wage being performance based, much like a salesman. The problem is that this is time consuming to administer and is still open to abuse. It is a question of supply and demand, too much labour results in lower rates, this applies to all jobs, even the most senior.

Does this make me a Republican or a Democrat??d:)


Cheers
Andrew
 

crunch

Commander
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
2,844
Re: Don't raise the minimum wage!!!

Andrew,

I'm thinking it makes you a voice of reason, great post.

This is the defining factor.

It is common in many societies to find ways to take from the rich and to give to the poor. This discourages the rich from creating further wealth and employment opportunities and encourages them to be less then honest on company returns. Additionally it teaches the poor that it is not your merits that get you ahead but that it is good to penalise the sucessful in your favour.

I couldn't, and didn't say it better myself.
 

i386

Captain
Joined
Aug 24, 2004
Messages
3,548
Re: Don't raise the minimum wage!!!

I was taught to have good work ethic. I'm always the go to guy. I'm the guy that doesn't abuse "sick days". I'm the guy without the "it's not my job syndrome". I'm the guy that's still working when the clock watchers are long gone. I'm the guy that doesn't feel entitled to anything because of the amount of time I've been there. I'm the employee you hate to lose. I am this person because this is the standard I hold myself to. If I was this person because of the monetary success it's given me I would have abandoned this philosophy a long time ago.

My next employer will be me.
 

crunch

Commander
Joined
Aug 1, 2006
Messages
2,844
Re: Don't raise the minimum wage!!!

My next employer will be me.

You will never find a more demanding, disheartening, or discouraging goal in your life.

Go for it, the rewards are indescribable, even if you fail.

And there is always the next time. 8)
 

Pony

Rear Admiral
Joined
Jun 27, 2004
Messages
4,355
Re: Don't raise the minimum wage!!!

custombycrunch said:
I said that she sent out resume after resume. Searching the paper and going to interview after interview. There was NOTHING. Its called being over qualified.

I can certainly sympathize with that, It's one of the reasons I grew up poor.

My stepfather had masters in Physics, Geology, Chemistry, and Math.... and his teaching credentials. Only job he could find was substitute.

He did manage to build, stick by stick a very nice home for us and we kept the ranch together. They finally sold it when land values were high and managed to retire gracefully, not rich, but they do ok.

Hopefully your mom will do as well.

Thanks Custom. She has done well now. She had gotten a full time job at working as a temp in the legal dept of a Milwaukee based firm that makes electric motors and water heaters etc. While doing that she still worked her near min wage job. After a month or two they offered here a full time job, and offered her a slarary that was equal to that of the original job she had lost after working there 21 years. She is finally happy to go to work everyday, at a company that truly values her.

BoatBuoy said:
Pony, you've probably figured it out already, but "over-qualified" is just another way for business repukes to circumvent age discrimination laws.

Yup no doubt. That was the frustrating part, as everyone could see that was going on, but can't do much about it. Its just so much easier to hire someone straight out of school for less money and who most of the time doesnt even take any benefits.
 

rmmpe

Petty Officer 1st Class
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
233
Re: Don't raise the minimum wage!!!

CBC,
Are you sure that is not from Txswiener?
 

demsvmejm

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
831
Re: Don't raise the minimum wage!!!

RubberFrog said:
waterinthefuel said:
Who makes minimum wage? High school kids flipping burgers!! I don't want to pay more for everything I buy to put a few more bucks in the pocket of an irresponsible, pimple faced kid who will simply blow the money on junk.

Do you know how pathetic that sounds?

Do an analysis of the work force. Take a look at who is really working those low wage jobs. It is mostly minorities and old people.

Maybe in Podunk Arkansas it is all kids but in the rest of the country it is people who are desperate to feed their families. People who don't have time to further their education because they are working two jobs trying to take care of their families.

The only thing that makes me sick more than a bleeding lib is a greedy selfish republican.

I am shocked,
I agree with Rubberfrog!
 

demsvmejm

Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined
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Messages
831
Re: Don't raise the minimum wage!!!

I work in an industry where even entry level workers are paid more than minimum, more than the proposed minimum. But I do not agree that the current minimum wage is adequate. Those of you who argue against raising the MW all argue that anyone can raise their education/skill/job-status/wage. That is true, ANYONE can do it, but EVERYONE can't.
That is perhaps too deep for some of you "free-market" minds. But just as the proponents have said, anyone who works an honest hour should be able to support one's family, even if that family is one. As for what standard we should use, it should be the minimum for that area. If there are no low-income housing units available, then you can't base it on that being an option. If the cost of living is low, then great, but what about those who live in areas with higher costs of living? Gauge the minimum wage to the average cost of living. That is why I commute 25 miles one way to work.

As for gaining skills or education, when a person is working two jobs to live, that leaves little time for bettering one's position.

As for leaving wage determination to the free market, don't underestimate the power and collusion of the corporate society. They would pay the absolute minimum they could, just to increase the bottom line and pad the tope exec's bonus & other compensations.

As for my position on increasing the minimum wage, I am unsure. I think the increase suggested is excessive, but if it's going to last for over a decade, it's gonna have to be a good increase.
 

tommays

Admiral
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
6,768
Re: Don't raise the minimum wage!!!

On the other hand :)

I think i was makeing 8 dollars and hour in 1976 ? with nothing but a High School Deg

30 years latter a lot of places want to pay around 12 to 16 dollars and hour for the same skills ?

there is something wrong with that after inflation ?

I still wrench in a factory and train the new wrenchs as school Now sends them out ready to go to collage OR pretty much no real skills

Shop has become a bad thing around here :)


What my honest observation is that as the min wage has gone up here (7.15 and hour Jan 1) the more people from THERE flock HERE to live in packed house and send money home to take care of ther familys kinda of sad


Tommays
 

woodrat

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Joined
Jul 27, 2004
Messages
949
Re: Don't raise the minimum wage!!!

"I think i was makeing 8 dollars and hour in 1976 ? with nothing but a High School Deg

30 years latter a lot of places want to pay around 12 to 16 dollars and hour for the same skills ?
"

OK, so if the wages have gone up by 50-100% in 28 years, that might sound great. But what has the cost of a two bedroom house and a used pickup done in that time?

I know that where I lived in Portland, OR from 92-95, the cost of renting a house like mine went from $350 to $750. In just THREE years. It's about $1200 now. My parents' house was purchased in 74 for $42k. Now it is worth something like $275-300k. That is an increase of about 700%.

Lets look at the cost of a new pickup. What are they now, around $25-30K? So did a new pickup cost $16K back in 1978? I doubt it!

So at least based on my very crude comparison, it looks like wages have NOT kept up with costs of living. I'm sure you can find housing numbers all over the board, but I can almost guarantee that unless you are in the outback of the Dakotas or someplace similar, housing has WAY more than doubled since 1978.
 

tommays

Admiral
Joined
Jul 4, 2004
Messages
6,768
Re: Don't raise the minimum wage!!!

That WOULD be the point :) wages have been squezed DOWN buy cheep inported labor


Tommays
 
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