Don't waste your time reading this if you are an expert . . .

petryshyn

Commander
Joined
Oct 3, 2001
Messages
2,851
Hello Gents.....I gotta get this off my chest.<br />- I'm no expert either!!....But I know that ignition systems are capable of producing very high voltages (30,000 – 50,000volts).<br />The spark plug presents a load to the ignition system and keeps the voltage down to around 4000 – 10,000 volts (depending on plug gap, cylinder pressure, mixture).<br />-When you pull off the plug wire to test for spark, you remove the load from the ignition system and the voltage rises to its maximum.(30KV – 50KV). Here’s the interesting part. The ignition system is not designed or insulated to handle the maximum voltage it can produce, because under normal operation, this high voltage never occurs. If you don’t believe this, try holding a pulled off ignition wire on a CDI system. It’ll arc right through the wire to your hand because the wire can't insulate that high a voltage.<br /> <br />-If you pull a plug wire off the plug, crank or run the engine, increase the gap by moving too far from the block, you’ll lose sight of the spark. Where did it go? Especially on CDI, the voltage is so high that it’s going to find a path to ground somewhere, even if it’s not through the plug wire. It may find a path through the jacket of the plug wire, then through your hand to ground. Not only did it hurt your hand, but your elbow as well when you jabbed it back on the frame!<br /> <br />-It also did a bad thing to the plug wire (it only takes once). As it passed through the insulative jacket, it punched a small hole (as lightening would do through your roof!). Now the wire is damaged, and over time, moisture can enter and supply an alternate path to ground under certain conditions (high engine load, high atmospheric humidity) thus robbing the plug of applied voltage. This of course would result in a misfire. <br /> <br />-Damaging the plug wire is elementary. Where did the spark go if it didn’t pass through the wire jacket and your hand? Don’t forget, 30KV – 50KV can jump an air gap of up to 1” (pending on atmospheric conditions). Trust me....it went somewhere (CDI is not forgiving). The most common place for the arc to occur when plug wire pulled off is through the coil windings to ground, thus burning an alternate path to ground inside the coil. Since it’s inside the coil, its not visible and the damage goes undetected. Each time the arc occurs, it burns more and more insulative material inside the coil making it easier for the arc to occur. The worst thing is that the coil doesn’t always fail 'right away'!! That’s why coil failure and pulling wires off while running aren’t practically associated. It is common to find failed coils after the wire failed open internally. I can hear some saying yeah….yeah…..yeah, “I’ve seen wires left off the engine before and it never damaged the coil” That’s very common, because the spark was occurring through wire to ground, not through the coil. If you want to prove this, just remove the wire totally from the plug and coil from YOUR boat and take it for a spin. It’ll either burn a carbon trace on the coil tower to ground, or damage internal insulation. Either way...coil is junk. <br /><br />-The recommended method of checking for spark is to install a device with a safe air gap (not ‘pulled off wire’ held next to block and hoping you don’t pull away too far). There are a multitude of different tools out there for cheap. Some look like (and would be easy to make) a regular electrode plug with the ground tang broken off. It also has an alligator clip fastened on to prevent you from losing precious ground (I believe they take approx. 30KV to jump their gap) Others have an adjustable air gap, which again should not be maladjusted. If none are available, use a conventional plug held securely to the block.<br /> <br />-A good bad example:<br /> I had an engine hooked on an oscilloscope. As I was maneuvering around the engine, I accidentally tugged on the probe wire from the scope, which pulled off the coil wire from the distributor. The engine quit, so I simply reinstalled the wire and attempted to restart the engine. NO GO. When the wire was pulled away on the running engine, it fell near the engine harness, which housed the signal wires from the distributor. Since the ignition pack is designed to handle about 40V signal input, it couldn’t tolerate 40,000V. After putting in a new module, I restarted the engine. Now the scope didn’t work. When the wire was pulled off, not only did the arc occur to ground, but also to the scope interface cable as well. The input section of the scope samples a portion of the actual voltage, not all!!! Luckily I found the Interface chip at a local electronics supplier and was able to fix my screw up on my own time.<br /><br />**My point is this....If we recommend to a non-tech person to remove the plug wire to check for spark:<br />-risk wire, plug boot, and coil damage (everyone pulls it away just to see the pretty lights)<br />-risk shock through hand which results in dropping of wire<br />-if wire is dropped > risk damage to pack, rectifier/regulator, coil, wire, tach and any electronically sensitive devices.<br /><br />Lets make safe recommendations.<br /><br />correct me if I'm wrong.....I'm going deer hunting!!
 

Fouled Plug

Ensign
Joined
Jun 29, 2001
Messages
935
Re: Don't waste your time reading this if you are an expert . . .

I remove a spark plug, place it in the wire and leave it touching the block to check spark. If there's on old or spare plug handy to use, it's even easier. Haven't fried anything yet! :D
 

12Footer

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
8,217
Re: Don't waste your time reading this if you are an expert . . .

Point taken. I realize the risk,and usually pull the plugs,hook them up to the plug wire, and use a battery clip jumper to the plug base and ground.<br />I've found that while turning the engine over, it is not good to touch the metal engine,as I have STILL been knocked for a loop. I heard the claim that the arc must jump a half inch or better, and surely, it will, if it's good. But all I'm interested in is the tiny arc accorss the plug gap.<br />I've been knocked silly by them there new fangled electric lighters when playing with them,so MY chief concern is getting within striking distance in the first place.<br />If there is an arc,no matter how weak,it will ingnite atomized fuel.<br />I set fire to a merc durring a test,as the the engine had raw fuel in the cowling..I could smell it, but the fumes must've went to my head. Once I got the fire out,I put the plug back in, and it ran fine.<br />I also understand a weak spark will lead to a fouled plug over a short period of operation.<br />So what do we do?<br />Your diagostic tool is a good place to start,and I'm certain you will have bugs to work-out, but one to eliminate before getting your solder gun out would be that issue of allowing full potential to the plugs,while at the same time, getting a sample large enough to read, but small enough not to fry the indicators out of the mater. That's a tall oreder, as the voltage could be as low as 5V, to 40KV. Flourescent tubes held-up close to RF will light the tube in your hand. Perhaps these would make a good, if not awkward (due to the size of six small flourescent bulbs laid-out there),indicators?<br />Instead of reading voltage directly, they would light according to the RF present in the pulse. But you are right. Who amoung us,has never been woken up by getting in the way of this awesome voltage? "DOOOH!!!AAAHHH!!<br />If you say never, you are fibbin.<br />Good luck on your hunt..MMMMmmmm..Venison!!<br /><br />
1003024912423_anihomer.gif
 

12Footer

Fleet Admiral
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
8,217
Re: Don't waste your time reading this if you are an expert . . .

I'm going to 'spearment with a flourescent bulb out of a campin lantern on my runnin boat tomorrw. I'll let you know how it goes.
 

mbb

Petty Officer 2nd Class
Joined
Apr 20, 2001
Messages
176
Re: Don't waste your time reading this if you are an expert . . .

Well said. If no gap checker available, I usually stick a screwdriver in the plug boot and hold it close to the end of the plug in question to look for spark.<br /><br />I had a sparkplug back completely out of a cyl. on a truck once while driving on the interstate. It kept running fine (although extremely loud). I thought I had a hole in an exhaust manifold, so I tried to make it to the next exit. The coil burnt out after about 5 miles or so.
 

JB

Honorary Moderator Emeritus
Joined
Mar 25, 2001
Messages
45,907
Re: Don't waste your time reading this if you are an expert . . .

Howdy Schematic. Your lecture is very persuasive and comes across as theoretically sound. On the other hand, as you say, you are only guessing.<br /><br />I don't dispute the soundness of your recommendations to REDUCE RISK that a particular ignition system is as under-engineered as you guess it is.<br /><br />That what you predict as certain consequences so rarely occur in real life suggests that many systems are not so under-engineered as you guess.<br /><br />My ignition analyzer scope disputed your claim that a spark plug load keeps voltages in the high voltage side of CD systems down to 10KV. 50KV peaks were common and did no harm to the system. Kettering system peaks, however, with their much slower rise times, were attenuated by a plug load.<br /><br />I think you have a sound case for what you recommend, Schematic, but I think you have overstated it enough to weaken its effect.<br /><br />Red sky at night. . .<br />JB :)
 

ODDD1

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jan 23, 2001
Messages
1,054
Re: Don't waste your time reading this if you are an expert . . .

Now how am i supposed to ignore a headline like that??? [give me a minute while I pull the hook out of my jaw...LOL....]<br />all your cautions assume not enuogh insulation to contain a spark discharge....without a spark discharge, no damage done....that is the only fault i can find in your logic, schematic.....would I ever intentionally leave a plug wire unloaded? nope.....it is an imcomplete method of testing, gives little information for the bother...now shorting a plug wire to ground, this I consider safe....[as do the people who build these systems] with requisite follow up air gap tests....
 

petryshyn

Commander
Joined
Oct 3, 2001
Messages
2,851
Re: Don't waste your time reading this if you are an expert . . .

Hi gents..back from hunting. Still sicker than a dog.....dam flue...Our hunting is limited up here, so you gotta go when its open, sick or not.<br /><br />I'd just like to say that I don't mean to upset or insult anyone on any forum. This is actually my first 'forum' experience. I hope that my etiquette on the net is of a positive note. Sometimes its hard to type your emotions accurately. I've sure learned a lot about distance learning in the last few weeks!!! <br /><br />>Regarding the issue of operating an ignition system without a plug (open circuit).......thanks for the response guys, but.....don't take my word for it, ask the manufacturer(I'm only guessing...LOL). If any one of them condones this activity, I'll eat my shorts!! And trust me, they aint pretty after this flue I'm fighting!!<br /><br />>Secondly, none of this topic has anything to do with the diagnostic tool I'm attempting to build. The adjustable spark testers on the market today go for $6.00 CAN and do a spectacular job, and this is what I recommend. The tool I'm working on has nothing to do with running the ignition open circuit. It is intended for monitoring a multi-cyl. System simultaneously, and with no external influence.<br /><br />>>Fouled Plug <br />Nothing wrong with your method. It’s doing exactly what a spark gap tester would do. You are not running open circuit and the plug loads the system, maintaining a safe voltage.<br /><br />>>12Footer<br />Nothing wrong with your method, as the plug is still loading the system. Don't confuse the tool I'm building as a replacement for a spark tester. A spark tester or modified spark plug is as capable of checking spark quality as any tool for this purpose. The tool I'm building simply detects more than 1 cyl. at a time. It WILL NOT GIVE A BETTER INDICATION of spark than a spark tester, or your spark plug method. <br />I like your idea on the fluorescent tubes!<br /><br />>>mbb<br />Thanks for the testimony mbb. Your method is fine if you're careful not to increase the gap excessively. By putting the screwdriver inside the boot, you're supplying a safe path for the arc and protect the boot from carbon tracing. <br />This brings up a very important point in which I forgot to mention!! When a plug wire boot is pulled off the plug and held near the block, the arc travels from the end of the wire terminal > along the insulative material of the boot > through the atmosphere to block. If it is allowed to pass along side the boot material several times, it burns a carbon trace along the boot (on the inside and very hard to see) When the plug wire is put back on, the etched carbon trace may provide a path to ground along side the plug insulator to ground. This usually results in a misfire under heavy load conditions when cylinder pressures are high and required ignition voltage rises.(if anyone disbelieves this, pull the plug wire off 3/4" and let it hang there on the end of the plug. The arc will pass along the boot to the plug terminal. Go for a couple spins around the lake. Inspect boot with light and magnif. glass. You'll see a thin black line called a carbon trace. This will often cause an intermittent misfire and prove hard to find. (I've replaced dozen's on Twin Cams because boots not seated correctly)<br />As for you coil failure, I salute you!! Another eq. 3800 with DIS. If the wire fails open, or gets pulled off to test for spark for any length of time...........you buy a coil......and sometimes a pack!!! Sometimes it may take a month or so to fail, but you know what,,,,,,its going to fail. Someone else will probably replace it, so you'll never know.<br /><br />>>ODDD1......sorry, I didn't mean to snag you!!<br /><br />You're right...Good point!!Shorting the plug wire to ground is a safe practice. It prevents high voltage build-up and presents to danger to insulation. This is actually an alternative method of disable ignition during cranking eq. compression tests. Especially if the ignition and wiring of the system is unknown at the time, this provides a safe method of disabling.<br /><br />>>>>>>>My intent of this posting was not to bash or embarrass anyone on the forum. You guys are all great, and the combination of our experiences is priceless. Everyone has their own knowledge and experiences which have value to many. Do what you may with this topic. Just remember, why do you shudder when someone asks you to hold a open plug wire...............are you scared it'll shock you 'through' the insulation? (just guessing....LOL)
 

ODDD1

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jan 23, 2001
Messages
1,054
Re: Don't waste your time reading this if you are an expert . . .

Dont back up too far, schematic...offense i would not take....some of us here really like a good arguement....uh I mean 'debate'..LOL...
 

petryshyn

Commander
Joined
Oct 3, 2001
Messages
2,851
Re: Don't waste your time reading this if you are an expert . . .

No backing up here ODDD1! OK..OK..I did mean to snag some people into reading...but no one specific....<br /><br /> I'm not condemning shorting a plug wire directly to ground, I'm cautioning against running it open circuit....LOL<br /><br />Now.....is there a fitting in my air box for the bleeder line, or is it just an opening?
 

ODDD1

Lieutenant Junior Grade
Joined
Jan 23, 2001
Messages
1,054
Re: Don't waste your time reading this if you are an expert . . .

Jeeese, schematic...I forgot all about that....you should have a brass barbed fitting on the airbox, starter side of engine, down low, barb pointing aft....
 

petryshyn

Commander
Joined
Oct 3, 2001
Messages
2,851
Re: Don't waste your time reading this if you are an expert . . .

ODDD1, you are the man.......<br />Thanks again!!!
 
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