DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

[RickyGee]

I have twin 500B?s driving DP-C drives (PN 872206) that need the PDS bearings replaced (noisy). Since I have to pull the drives to remove the engines, I thought I might replace the u-joints while I?m at it although they aren?t making any noise. The boat is a 75? houseboat from 1991 with about 400hrs on the engines and drives. There?s no boatyard on this lake, but it was last in drydock 5 years ago when the drives were serviced and the PDS bearings were SUPPOSED to be replaced...(engines were never pulled)

I have the engine and drive shop manuals and have been doing a lot of research and reading, as well as part shopping (3860232 outside clip spiders). I?m a retired aircraft mechanic and have changed u-joints on several cars and Mercruiser Alpha drives over the years, but this is my first Volvo. So, my question:

Is it merely difficult or is it impossible to remove the spider closest to the upper gear housing without removing the fork from the bearing box on the upper gear unit? From pictures I?ve found on the web, it looks like clearance to the drive side fork is restricted by the box. May not be possible to press out/in the new caps. I really don?t want to pull the fork as I don?t have the tools to set the running torque properly on reassembly and all the work will be taking place at the shore?s edge?under a shade tree?:untroubled:

Thanks for any tips from anyone who has done this job before. -Rick

 

[K-2]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

I watched a Volvo mechanic do it once, he made it look easy, pretty sure he went from outside-in, kind of a one cap at a time deal. There is a notch in the outdrive case, by where the exhaust bellows clamps on,,that notch comes in handy. It looks like there isn't room to do it, but he wiggled things around and got it done. I didn't like the way he had to "tap" on the caps to get the spider together,,,using a vice seems so much less chance of knocking the needle bearings loose. It was my DP-B1 he did it on.

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

you will need to at least pull the upper gear box off the drive. best to pull the drive anyway and also pressure test.

there are a few stickies at the top of the forum that you should read

http://forums.iboats.com/mercruiser-i-o-inboard-engines-outdrives/vp-357328.html#post2360521

 

[RickyGee]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

I watched a Volvo mechanic do it once, he made it look easy, pretty sure he went from outside-in, kind of a one cap at a time deal. There is a notch in the outdrive case, by where the exhaust bellows clamps on,,that notch comes in handy. It looks like there isn't room to do it, but he wiggled things around and got it done. I didn't like the way he had to "tap" on the caps to get the spider together,,,using a vice seems so much less chance of knocking the needle bearings loose. It was my DP-B1 he did it on.

Thanks for the info. If he did it, then it must be possible. It looked close in the pictures. I don't like the idea of "tapping" either and plan to use a press, but wasn't sure if I could get the cap into position.

 

[RickyGee]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

you will need to at least pull the upper gear box off the drive. best to pull the drive anyway and also pressure test.

there are a few stickies at the top of the forum that you should read

http://forums.iboats.com/mercruiser-i-o-inboard-engines-outdrives/vp-357328.html#post2360521

Yeah, I'm going to pull the whole drive rather than just the head. I need to replace the tilt fork bushings anyway. The stickies have been a real help and I'm grateful to Don and the others for assembling all that good info into one place. Especially the info on the spider part numbers.

 

[billbayliner]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

Rick, do not try and change those U/J's with the double bearing box assembled. It will be a nightmare. To do it properly you have to remove the double bearing box from the upper and then tear down the assembly to remove the universal joint assembly....

THEN COMES THE REASSEMBLY where you must install a new pretension sleeve and set the rolling torque on the drive gear bearings.

I have made a couple videos on showing the procedure on setting them if you are determined to change the spiders. Also I have source for the 3860232 spiders at half the list cost and ARE NOT knock-offs.

 

[RickyGee]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

Rick, do not try and change those U/J's with the double bearing box assembled. It will be a nightmare. To do it properly you have to remove the double bearing box from the upper and then tear down the assembly to remove the universal joint assembly....

THEN COMES THE REASSEMBLY where you must install a new pretension sleeve and set the rolling torque on the drive gear bearings.

I have made a couple videos on showing the procedure on setting them if you are determined to change the spiders. Also I have source for the 3860232 spiders at half the list cost and ARE NOT knock-offs.

Thank, Bill. Are the videos published on YouTube or somewhere? I read the reassembly procedure in the shop manual and was hoping to not open the drive due to concerns for contamination and leakage. I'm forced to do this work outside, exposed to the elements. And setting the rolling torque preload on the bearing looks a bit tricky. But if there is no clearance for the cap, then I have no choice. If the VP spiders are a decent price, then I'm certainly interested. I plan to do a pressure test anyway. Do you happen to know the thread pitch on the drain plug and dipstick? I'm going to have to adapt my vacuum gage and pump.

Is the trunnion journal on that VP spider 0.60 or 0.701? They have different length caps. Thanks again.

 

[RickyGee]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

bump

 

[RickyGee]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

I watched a Volvo mechanic do it once, he made it look easy, pretty sure he went from outside-in, kind of a one cap at a time deal. There is a notch in the outdrive case, by where the exhaust bellows clamps on,,that notch comes in handy. It looks like there isn't room to do it, but he wiggled things around and got it done. I didn't like the way he had to "tap" on the caps to get the spider together,,,using a vice seems so much less chance of knocking the needle bearings loose. It was my DP-B1 he did it on.

Did he install Genuine VolvoPenta spiders? I see that the caps vary in depth, from 16 to 19mm

 

[bazza57]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

...that mechanic had the right method, you get the caps lined up and started by hand then use a soft hammer...you will have more feel doing it like this than in a vice. Use the hammer on the yoke to relieve any binding.

I watched a Volvo mechanic do it once, he made it look easy, pretty sure he went from outside-in, kind of a one cap at a time deal. There is a notch in the outdrive case, by where the exhaust bellows clamps on,,that notch comes in handy. It looks like there isn't room to do it, but he wiggled things around and got it done. I didn't like the way he had to "tap" on the caps to get the spider together,,,using a vice seems so much less chance of knocking the needle bearings loose. It was my DP-B1 he did it on.

 

[K-2]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

Did he install Genuine VolvoPenta spiders? I see that the caps vary in depth, from 16 to 19mm

He did , I know because I supplied them. Also it's one of those odd years where the clips are on the outside, not the inside of the caps,
for some Volvo secret reason those crosses are way more $$ than the inner clip crosses.

 

[RickyGee]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

He did , I know because I supplied them. Also it's one of those odd years where the clips are on the outside, not the inside of the caps,
for some Volvo secret reason those crosses are way more $$ than the inner clip crosses.

Thanks a lot. That's really helpful. The shop manual only shows the procedure for the inner clip, but the IPC (and forum research) says my DP-C has outer clips. The VP spider is a non-greasable (hence, no drilled passageways to weaken the trunnion) very high quality Heavy Duty unit made by GKN that is impossible to find outside of VP spec suppliers. While it is a standard SAE 1300 series 27mm by 75mm size that's been in use for over 60 years, there are hundreds of part numbers that "fit" while only a few that are proper for this application, a sterndrive. The VP P/N is 3860232, GKN spec 2015, GKN unicardan PN 18871 and GKN Lobro PN U087. Probably made exclusively for VP, hence the astronomical price. I hope BillBayliner lets me know where they can be found.

 

[RickyGee]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

...that mechanic had the right method, you get the caps lined up and started by hand then use a soft hammer...you will have more feel doing it like this than in a vice. Use the hammer on the yoke to relieve any binding.

Thanks. That's how I did it on my Alpha drive years ago, but was planning to use a press (like a big "C" clamp) on the caps for the yoke going into the upper gear housing, to prevent any chance of brinnelling the bearing from the shock loads. I'll probably have to play it by ear when I get to that point, depending on how bad my u-joint looks and how bad the old caps are to get out. This is the picture I found that made me wonder about the clearance. This is a DP-C1 while mine is a DP-C but I think the shafts are the same. Note that this guy's unit does not have VP branded spiders installed. VP spiders have a recess in the center of the cap.

 

[K-2]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

Ricky, have you had a lot of problems with U joints? I have used, more than once, NON VP U joints with no problems.
I have twin engines/outdrives. one DP-A & a DP-B1 , the B1 uses the outer clip U joints the DP-A uses the cheaper inside clip joints.
They both hold up the same, the outer clip joint is bigger and stronger looking but in real life they both do fine.

 

[RickyGee]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

No. I’m just anticipating that my spiders will need replacement since the last mechanic to work on this boat 5 years ago didn’t do it, and the bellows were leaking. And I don’t want any issues later since hauling out this boat is a BFD on this lake. If they’re original VP, they can’t be greased.

Ujoints in a sterndrive have to transmit full power for long periods through angles up to 15 degrees (30 total). That’s a very demanding requirement that an automotive ujoint never sees. The closest I could find for a torture test is the offroading crowd at the Land Rover clubs. They torture their joints with shock loads (that sterndrives don’t apply) and frequently break the standard spiders installed by the factory, which just happen to be the exact same size as ours. (75mm X 27mm)

Here’s a picture of a GKN Genuine VP spider 3860232. Note the massive trunnion and no grease fitting provisions.



And here’s a picture of the “old” Sierra 18-6406 which is identical (underside showing).


The “GKN new style” Sierra 18-6406 is much different, and is offered only for Mercruiser. I’m guessing that VP and Sierra had a pissing match, since this joint will fit the VP drive as well, but Sierra won’t list it as such.


75x27 spiders are manufactured with 3 different trunnion journal sizes, from what I can find: 0.620” (std duty, like the original Alpha 1 drives and most automotive applications), 0.701 (like the current VP and Mercruiser) and 0.717” which is the largest of the bunch. All things being equal, the larger the journal, the stronger the spider. Here are picture showing the difference between an automotive std spider on the left and the HD (0.717) on the right.

 

[RickyGee]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

Here's the rest of the "New Style" pictures. The std spider is again on the left and the HD is on the right.




The Mercruiser Bravo spider 865493A01 is (or was) made from the same 2015 forging as the VP spider, but in GKNs Unicardan facility in Italy rather than Sweden. It looks like (I'm guessing...) that GKN has stopped producing the 2015 forgings, probably due to cost and very low production rates, and the new GKN HD forging is taking its place. It would not surprise me to open a VP box from a fresh order from Sweden and find the new style in it, but I have no evidence.

 

[RickyGee]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

Bill, how can I see those videos? That sounds really valuable, especially if I have to pull the fork from the bearing box (and I'm almost resigned to the idea, anticipating that the spider caps will be frozen in place). Thanks. -Rick

 

[K-2]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

Here's the rest of the "New Style" pictures. The std spider is again on the left and the HD is on the right.
View attachment 225019
View attachment 225020
View attachment 225021

The Mercruiser Bravo spider 865493A01 is (or was) made from the same 2015 forging as the VP spider, but in GKNs Unicardan facility in Italy rather than Sweden. It looks like (I'm guessing...) that GKN has stopped producing the 2015 forgings, probably due to cost and very low production rates, and the new GKN HD forging is taking its place. It would not surprise me to open a VP box from a fresh order from Sweden and find the new style in it, but I have no evidence.

I like the looks of the 0.717 spider. Is that Sierra part number 18-6406? Mercruiser part number 865493A01 ?

 

[RickyGee]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

I like the looks of the 0.717 spider. Is that Sierra part number 18-6406? Mercruiser part number 865493A01 ?

I do too. No it's not the Merc 865493A01. Those aren't being made anymore and the few remaining out there are fetching up to $200/ea. It might be the same as the new style Sierra 18-6406, but I can't be sure. The picture is actually a GKN (aka Spicer, aka Hardy Spicer, aka Dana Spicer, aka Unicardan, aka Lobro, aka etc.) spider made in their Germany plant under the number TVC100010G. The "G" is very important as it denotes the 0.717" (18.2mm) journal. It's not the same as the TVC100010 (aka U110, which is on the left) or the TVC100010D (has the 0.701" journal, and might be the same as the new Sierra). The Land Rover guys prefer them because they hold up the best. And I like it because it's greasable. The trunnion is drilled for the grease passages which technically makes it weaker than an undrilled (ungreasable or "Permalube"). Land Rover dealers would sell them as RTC4587G (again, the G is important), but they are less expensive (and hard to find in the USA) as the TVC100010G (about $40). Same exact spider. I haven't been able to locate a source that sells the same joint without the grease passages, but GKN lists an internal number for it. Perhaps that's the unit that is going into the current production shafts that VP wants you to buy as they have superceeded the spider with the whole shaft assy.

 

[RickyGee]

Re: DP-C drive u-joint change possible with fork in box?

Here's pictures of the boxes, courtesy of the folks at landroverexpedition.com. The one on the left is a standard 16mm journal made by GKN Lobro as PN U110, aka TVC100010. The one on the right is a TVC100010G made by GKN in Germany.