efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

ED21

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If you are talking about a new heat pump, it would most likely be a lot more efficient.<br />If you have an electric resistance heat type of furnace only, I don't think much can be gained.<br />I don't care much for heat pumps, but they are used a lot & are a lot cheaper to run than resistance heat in many areas.
 

ndemge

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efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

How have things changed in the efficiency of electrif furnaces? My house is 25 years old, and so is the furnace. 3 years ago I got a new AC unit outside, and that dropped my monthly electric bill $60-80 in the summer.<br /><br />So what about that old furnace in the basement? I would think that electric heat isn't something that can really be improved on, but I don't know.<br /><br />It still works, replacement parts are redily available, just wondering if it's worth replacing pre-demise.
 

ndemge

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

yes, Resistance furnace<br /><br />If I ever add on, maybe I'll have to put in some ground source.
 

Scaaty

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

I'm curious about this too..older (20?) electric furnace/resistance that works the same time to heat as when I bought the place. My thinking is if the elements are there and working, whats the diff? Same as an electric range. Whats to wear out, and any extra resistance created would just be heat anyway? Thoughts? And heatpumps are too expensive-would not live long enough to see savings, no nat-gas, propane way too much, and Puget Sound has cheap electricty.
 

Kenneth Brown

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

This past summer we got a entirely new unit. A new outside condesor unit and a new airhandler with new heating element inside, plus a digital thermostat. The ac part has helped quite a bit on cost. I have only used the heater twice so I couldn't tell you about cost savings with it. I can tell you that it works about twice as fast as my old unit to heat the house though so it seems it would be cheaper.<br /><br />That being said I wouldn't spend the money unless it broke. I kept patching mine and finally got tired of it when it went out. My heat still worked but I wasn't gonna call them service guys out again, do it all and let Visa pay for it I figured.
 

dhammann

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

electric heat is 100% effecient whether it is new or old... a kilowatt is a kilowatt
 

waterone1@aol.com

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

Converting electrical energy to heat in your house is nowhere close to 100% effecient. The variables are such things as heating element shape,Materials of heating elements, surrounding reflectors, air flow over coils, etc. Would I tear out a working electric furnace to replace with new ? NO. If I had to replace an older unit with a new unit would I expect it to be 5-7% more effecient ? Yes.
 

dhammann

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

Electrical resistance heat is 100% efficient, you can’t argue with physics. If you consume 1 KW of power you will convert it to 3,412 BTUs….no exceptions. The only power that is not being converted to heat is the power used to operate the blower. If heating elements are in bad shape they may use less power but the power they consume will still be 100% converted to BTUs. If you are concerned with using less energy (KWs) then maybe you should consider a heat pump. A heat pump will deliver more BTUs per KW because it will transfer the “free” heat from the outside air to the inside of the house. A heat pump is a combination of an electric furnace and a energy transfer pump…so it is more than 100% efficient. However, a heat pump is less reliable than an electric furnace and has a shorter life and more maintenance so the net savings over it’s life span may not be all that great. You cannot create or destroy energy, you can only transfer it or convert it to something else. Fossil fuel heat is not 100% efficient simply because part of the heat goes out the flue
 

byordy

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

Electrical heat is 100% efficient, and heat pumps are more than 100% efficient? Interesting! Must be the new Physics.
 

lakelivin

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

Originally posted by ndemge:<br /> yes, Resistance furnace<br /><br />If I ever add on, maybe I'll have to put in some ground source.
Isn't a ground source heat pump basically free heat and a/c (with the only expense being running the blower)?<br /><br />I've always wondered why more of these aren't used. I know they used to require alot of land to run the piping, but think they've developed installations which run more vertically, cutting down on the land space required. <br /><br />I know new technology is very slowly accepted in the building industry; anyone know if that's the case with ground source heat pumps or if it's more a matter of installation expense still outweighing the energy cost savings?
 

dhammann

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

yes byordy....you must have slept through physics.
 

ED21

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

Even a ground source heat pump requires a compressor to create a usable temp. <br />Groundsource has the advantage of a stable temperature of about 55 degrees.<br />Air source has to deal w/ a wide range of temps.<br />After about 32 degrees you can't get much heat from a heat pump.<br />Ground source requires hundreds of feet of buried tubing to exchange the heat.<br />It works, but I'm not sure it is worth the cost.<br />(edit word can to can't)
 

byordy

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

Hummmm, let's see. In the case of a resister heating element all of the input power is indeed dissipated in the resister (and the wire leads, the coating, etc.), but not all of it is transferred into the airstream surrounding it. Some heats the metal in the furnace, and some just serves to heat the resister. While it's true that all of the applied energy is disapated, not all of iot is available to provide heating for area to be served.<br />100% efficiency equates to the same power out of a device as is applied to it's "input". That would mean no losses. Seems to me there is a lot of research going into super conductors in order to reduce losses to acheive this result, but they haven't reached 100% yet. I don't believe even those distinguished scientists expect to acheive 100% efficiency.<br />Greater than 100% efficiency equates to more power out of a device than is applied to it. Lots of people have been trying to acheive this result, (the perpetual motion machine). Super conductors and the (formally) known laws of the universe are obsolete. The new Physics prevail, and you're right, I must have slept through it.<br />That's enough of this topic.<br />Bill.....
 

dhammann

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

byordy….You are absolutely correct about heat loses decreasing the efficiency and I respect your educated reply but I was not talking about external heat losses which are inherent in every system. I was referring to the efficiency of electric resistance heat as being 100% which it is. For every KW of electricity that you pay for you will get exactly 1 KW or 3412 BTUs of heat, period. A heat pump will deliver more BTU,s of energy than you are consuming (paying for). At 32 degrees outside and 70 degrees inside a 12 SEER heat pump will deliver 3753 BTUs of heat for every KW (3412 BTU) that you purchase….this is 110% efficient.
 

SS MAYFLOAT

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

Big Dee, Maybe from where you are heat pumps are good. Up north here heat pumps are not efficient unless there is a source to transfer heat from outside. When the temp falls below 20 degrees, that heat pump is just costing money with no usable heat. Then if the outside temp falls below zero, you just might as well have nothing.<br /><br />I can't remember the exact figures, but only 20 to 25% of homes are heated with electric, 60 to 70% are heated with LP/NG, 10 to 15% with wood/coal, and 3% with fuel oil.<br /><br />It all depends where you live on what works for minimum cost. I heat with oil for my backup, my woodburner is what I mainly use. Last year I only consumed about 210 gallons for the whole winter. Before burning wood, it would be around 500 to 600 gallons. Then that is not keeping the house as toasty as what the wood burner does. This year I expect to get by on less than a hundred gallons of oil.<br /><br />As for the efficiency question on electric. Yes there is differences in the application of electric heat. Forced air furnace, baseboard, radiant, and even heat lamp bulbs. Efficiency will differ between the applications. Efficiency is difference between the input and usable output. <br /><br />As far as kilo in equals kilo out maybe true only in the element, but it is the output out at the register is what counts. <br /><br />Mostly your location is what determines what is best for you.
 

BoatBuoy

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

byordy,<br /> Big Dee is exactly right. For every KW of electricity consumed, 3,412 BTU's of heat will be created - %100 efficient. The efficiency of the unit to deliver the heat to the living space is again another matter. Yes, the components you mention do consume some heat, but normally the largest loss is in the ductwork.<br /><br />As far as heat pumps, in one manner of thinking, they generate more energy than they consume. In reality, they "move" more heat from outside to inside than the equivalent amount of power consumed. This is only true to about 30-35 degrees outside temp. Below this, they have to rely on the built-in supplemental such as elec. resistance or gas to provide enough heat for home heating.
 

fixin

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

I heated with wood for 14 years and just converted to LP 2 years ago after a nasty flue fire(scared the wife pretty bad)My reasoning for going with LP was that a small generator will run the blower on the furnace if the power would go out during a winter storm.I have to say I miss the old wood furnace.One day I'll have me a big enough shop to use it again.
 

Snookster

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

Hello ndemge - you've certainly got a number of opinons but let me set you straight.<br /><br />ALL eletric heat old or new has a COP of 1. (well talk about COP in a minute.) That means it's a 100% effiecient - no loss from mechanical sources, friction etc. OLD or NEW you will see NO savings ever in cost of opperation with some VERY minor caveats. Remember your stat cycles on temp - I promise you, whether you have a 5 KW strip run for 1 hr to heat yor home or a 10KW for 1/2 hr - the KW consumption is the same. Temperature rise is the only differance -- more strips - more temp rise or better quality heat form your vents.<br /><br />Newer electric furnaces have some control features that can help in a very very small way by stageing the heat strips & allowing the blower to stay on a 30-90 seconds after the heat cycles off -- this improves life expectancy of the strips from heat fatigue & delivers a couple of BTUs vertually for free if the furnace is outside of the conditioned space -- if it's in the conditioned space - no savings is appreciated. Newer furnaces can also employ ECM motors that use less electricity - but this is not a varible of the heat source. Keep in mind the Florida Solar Energy center has vaidated the biggest energy loss in homes is duct loss / gain, either leaking ducts or ducts that are picking up cold or heat from the attic. As a rule, contractors have to add 15% capacity just to overcome this loss issue -- (so next home desigh the ducts IN the living space)<br /><br />Lets address your A/C 1st --- if you changed your outdoor unit (the condensing unit) w/o changeing the indoor coil (the evaporator) you did yourself a huge injustice. While systems can be made to run, you'll never have the enginnered performance of the A/C without matching the coil. So if & when you're ready to change the indoor unit --- go to ARI.org w/ your model # from your new cond. - you'll find every rated unit that is approved to run w/ your unit the BTUs & the SEER.<br /><br />I know I'm too late w/ this news flash -- but heres a big heads up. The DOE has changed Federal Law that mandates 1/06 all manufactures produce no less than 13 SEER (Effiecnacy)- this absolutly mandates you change the indoor & outdoor system as old metering devices just wo'nt work with a new 13 SEER condensor. And if life just was'nt intresting enough.... in 5 short years (1/2010) the EPA has mandated that the freon we use today will be phased out of production..... this will make for a whole new set of issues as NO old refriferant (R22) & new refrigearnt (R410A) is compatable. Just call me Mr Sunshine.<br /><br />Now heat pumps --- here's the FACTS:<br /><br />All heat pumps (assuming they are installed properly, charged properly and have the control systems set up properly will outperform ALL electric heat systems - for HEAT, not necessarly the A/C side. At least to the balance point and most down to 10 degrees.<br /><br />Perfromamce of heat pumps in measured in COP (Coeffiecient of Perfromance) the worst heat pump made has a COP of 3.5.... in other words it WILL deliver 3.5 times more BTUs of heat for the exact KW consumed - some go well up to 5+ COP.<br /><br />Now this is the important part - All heat pumps drop in perfromance when it gets cold - funky huh - just when you need more heat the worst - it starts falling off in performace - but thats how it is unless you go geothermal. Various parts of the country employ heat pumps differnly, IE in some areas a heat pump is used until the ambiant temp drops to 30-18 degrees (the balance point) then switch over to gas, oil or strip heat. A lot of varibles need to be addressed IE ultility rebates, KW cost, Gas cost, initial investment etc.<br /><br />From a pure service prespective.... heat pumps are not the chosen favorite of most mechanics. It's a fact they do have more moveing parts, have more controls (defrost etc) and don't enjoy the terrific temp rise that is enjoyed by gas & oil heat in terms of quality heat. I would strongly suggest that if you go heat pump ask for the extended warranty.<br /><br />I'd also like to mention - before you go to far down this road - spend a few extra dollars on a quality air filtration system (Aprileaire 2200 / 2400) to protect the new equip & your family.<br /><br />Be sure to get 3 bids, ask for referrals, mandate the contractor pull a permit & don't let them start until a CURRENT workers comp & liability insurance certificate is in your hands - this won't offend a legitamate contractor - if this offends sombody tell them to pack salt. - do not go low bid.<br /><br />PS - have them put in writting that your duct work has a max statis pressure of .5" - let them show you with a manometer.<br /><br /><br />Got any questions I did'nt cover?<br /><br />Dave B.
 

lakelivin

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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

Snookstar,<br /><br />hmm, I wonder what you do for a living....<br /><br />Not that I'm going to be in the market again soon, but do you have any info regarding geothermal? (e.g., current costs vs. payback, etc.)
 

Snookster

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Messages
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Re: efficiency of electric furnaces.... new vrs old

I'm a mechanical contractor in Naples, Fla. <br /><br />You can find some fairly reliable data at both Buildingscience.com & Fla Solar Energy Center. Geothermal has some favorable unique charicteristics but you've got to have your ducks in a row. Even geotherrmal systems employ convenotional compressors & the like - the advantage is the consistant temp from the ground allows heat pumps to run at temps much lower that those relying on ambiant temp.<br /><br />Dollar for dollar - if you can get gas - go for it. What are you trying to accomplish? Any special issues? What part of the world?
 
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