Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

[Soundbounder]

Just read this today in the San Diego Union:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/dec/12/electric-concept-boat-charges-scene/

 

[kenmyfam]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

Very interesting.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

From the article:

His company?s literature said Electro-Mariner boats will be able to run at 20 knots for one hour or at nine knots for four hours.

?It?s comparable in all respects except range,? Ferran said.

That's the problem with electric power, energy storage density is very low. The weight of batteries it would take to store the amount of energy equivalent to 100 gallons of gas would sink an aircraft carrier, much less a pleasure boat ......

Hopefully battery technology wll get better quickly enough to keep recreational boating alive as gas prices go up.

 

[roscoe]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

$500,000
one hour run time

silly little solar panels that must take weeks to recharge the batteries.

sounds like a gimmicky toy for millionaires that feel guilty when they drive their Hummers. Bet they don't ride bikes to the marina.

 

[Chiliando]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

Love the idea but we are obviously not there tech wise.

Maybe soon?

 

[Alpheus]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

You guys sound like the old timers back in the infancy of the days of the automobile industry, when they announced that cars were going to run on gasoline. "You'll never catch me driving one of those. Its like strapping dynamite to a mule."

I think its a great idea. The first powered flight was less than a minute long and that was the most inefficient engine ever made. everything starts out small and starts with a couple of guys thinking outside the box. 4 hours at nine knots is pretty good to start with...

 

[roscoe]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

You guys sound like the old timers back in the infancy of the days of the automobile industry, when they announced that cars were going to run on gasoline. "You'll never catch me driving one of those. Its like strapping dynamite to a mule."

I think its a great idea. The first powered flight was less than a minute long and that was the most inefficient engine ever made. everything starts out small and starts with a couple of guys thinking outside the box. 4 hours at nine knots is pretty good to start with...

A boat is not a car.

A car rolls and can maintain 55 mph with as little as 9 hp.

A planing boat, especially a 25 or 33 footer needs hundreds of hp to maintain on plane.

THe surface area needed to have ample solar panel space to charge those batteries in less than a decade, would be huge. The weight and size of those batteries is also huge, hence the 25' and 33' boat size. And a half million dollar price tag - projected, means $650,000.

4 hours at 9 knots is little better than a sailboat.

I suspect that they have some huge dock power cables to recharge the batteries, cables that are hooked up to our electric grid.

rich mans showpiece

why not make a practical 18' fishing boat for $40 grand?

 

[45Auto]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

You guys sound like the old timers back in the infancy of the days of the automobile industry, when they announced that cars were going to run on gasoline. "You'll never catch me driving one of those. Its like strapping dynamite to a mule."

So exactly how did they transport dynamite before they had automobiles if they didn't strap it to a mule?

The first powered flight was less than a minute long and that was the most inefficient engine ever made.

Hate to burst your bubble, but the Wright brothers engine was about the most ADVANCED engine ever made at the time. The Wright brothers use of an aluminum crankcase was the first time aluminum was used in aircraft construction, which allowed them to have a power-to-weight ratio high enough to achieve powered flight.

 

[tnduc]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

?We have got a winner here,? said Robert Ferran of Clairemont, an engineer and avid fisherman who founded the company. ?We are talking about jobs for hundreds and hundreds of people in San Diego if this company gets off the dock.?

I like this quote by the designer. He obviously has not been made aware of the California's business tax structure, worker's comp laws, environmental taxes, etc... Will probably end up being built in Tijuana.

 

[tkrfxr]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

Love the idea.

Hate the poor practicality of the product.

This concept has a long way to go, technologically and business wise...

A diesel-electric hybrid appears more plausible, but is still very expensive.

 

[Alpheus]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

So exactly how did they transport dynamite before they had automobiles if they didn't strap it to a mule?

I missed a line, let me rephrase. "Dynamite with a lit fuse."

As for the Wrights engine. The engine was a marvel at the time for a couple of bike mechanics to build, but it was not efficient. Yes it was aluminum and yes it put out 12 HP but it was not efficient.It didnt even run that well. But it was the first one (prototype) Same as the electric boat. Now look at where the aerospace industry went within just 15 years from that first flight. Now after powered flight is the norm you sit and defend the Wrights But you are acting like the guys in the Wrights time by saying " If men were meant to fly God would have given him wings". Change a few words around and it sounds just like you bashing an electric powered boat.

This electric boat is a step in the right direction. Almost every new technology that comes out is expensive, look how much a VCR cost when it first came out. Im just saying dont bash the guy for trying something new that others are just to afraid to try themselves. Their always to busy listening to what "THEY" say.

PS

Do you know that there were more people that thought the first picture of the first flight was a hoax than man landing on the moon?

 

[QC]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

Careful with the politics . . . you have no idea how many comments I have that would start a war, but let's keep it to the technical merits or lack there of . . . Thanks all.

Speaking of technical merits, there is no advanced anything in this package that I know of. Electric boats are not a market yet because of energy storage as 45 as pointed out. In fact, that is the challenge with almost all "Alternate Fuel" mobile applications.

Pleasure craft will be the last market that you will see any innovation due to it's relative size. If the automotive market drives development of a 200 - 300 hp power plant that it is able to run at rated for 2 hours straight at similar weights and space as that same package today (V8, 50 gal of fuel, tank space, engine and drive space) then we will have something that could translate into the space we tend to play in. Change the application and all kinds of things break loose. Best example is an electric Duffy. They dominate our local marinas for harbor cruises and restaurant runs. Serve as a yacht tender for those with boats in slips and homes on the water. They go wakeless speeds at 20 ft. and carry 10+ passengers. Awesome. But that is waaaay different than trying to go 20 - 30 miles out start and stop for 4 hours, and return in the same day which is the application this guy has attempted. Cars can't do that job (big power, same weight etc.) so why in the world would a boat be able to? There is no volume to drive that type of technical solution . . . I guess the Tesla is close, but range kicks it's arse. They claim 244 miles, but I have read 55 and that is still not running wide open for that two hours ^^^^ which is a better comparison for translation to marine requirements. Yes I know we don't run wide open, but that equalizes the applications as best as I can with short notice . . .

 

[QC]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

A diesel-electric hybrid appears more plausible, but is still very expensive.

Not to pick on anybody, but I'll never understand this. There is no braking in a marine application, so there is no wasted energy to "recover". So take a mechanically efficient package (diesel with mechanical drive) and add an inefficient alternative (engine+generator+electric motor)? What does that achieve? Unless you are after the plug in capability which leads us back to energy storage issues. Some mega ships are powered this way, and so are trains but those applications don't have many good mechanical transmission alternatives. I am sure I am missing something, but I don't see it for our application.

 

[rbh]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

Love the idea.

Hate the poor practicality of the product.

This concept has a long way to go, technologically and business wise...

A diesel-electric hybrid appears more plausible, but is still very expensive.

Take a page from the railroads history, diesel, electric thrusters/motors

 

[45Auto]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

But it was the first one (prototype) Same as the electric boat

Do you really think sticking an electric motor in a boat is new???? Look up the Duffi 21, it has almost the same performance as the Electro Mariner you're so anxious to defend, and it's been in production since 1968. Costs about 27K brand new. As was said earlier, the problem is energy storage. Until batteries (or some other technology) gets much more mature, nothing is going to come close to liquid fuels.

Apparently you don't realize that people have been sticking electric motors in boats for about 170 years. Here's the 19th century, from Solar Boat History. Notice that the French had an electric boat in 1882 (127 years ago!) that did 24 knots for 26 kilometers. The Electro Mariner can do 20 knots for one hour, which would be 37 kilometers . Not what I consider a major breakthrough for 127 years of development ...

http://www.solarnavigator.net/solar_boat_history.htm

CHRONOLOGY OF ELECTRIC BOATS FROM 1838

1838 Professor Moritz Jacobi in Russia experiments with a 24' long, electrically propelled boat.

1880 Gustav Trouve, a Paris chemist, invents a removable electrical Aussenborder.

1882 At the yacht club de France the first e-boat-record was set with a speed of 24 kn over a distance of 26 kilometers.

1883 During the Viennese world exhibition the "Beni" electrically carries 45 passengers on the Danube.

1886 The 32' "Volta", an electrical boat, crosses the English channel from Dover to Calais and back in 8 hours.

1887 Isaak Peral develops in Spain a submarine with 480 batteries and two 30 HP engines. Since the Spanish navy does not show interest, the development continues in France.

1888 The "Viscountess Bury" is the largest e-boat for 84 passengers. In the same year the Chinese Empire orders 15 m long boats, capable of 18 Km/h.

1889 The first 6 electrical charter boats run in England on the Thames.

1892 The world exhibition in Chicago carries more than one million visitors on 55 e-boats over 200.000 miles without a breakdown, bringing $300,000 in profit.

1893 Kerbey Bowen patents an e-auxiliary engine for sail yachts with the batteries in the keel.

1901 Three shipowners operate approx. 110 e-boats in the charter and tax enterprise aon the Thames.

 

[45Auto]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

I agree with QC on the diesel-electric, it's not practical in our application (pleasure boats). It could possibly be practical on large, highly loaded ships, but I doubt it even there. And you'll be up in the range that it'll take somebody like Bill Gates to be able to afford one.

The big advantae of diesel-electric on trains is that it disconnects the RPM of the power supply (diesel engine) from the RPM of the drive wheels. In a starting situation you can have the diesels turning at thousands of RPM's and the wheels barely moving. That takes a ridicoulous gearbox to accomplish mechanically. But with the electric drive motors, the diesels can be revving up and supplying power to the electric drive motors which are barely moving. The reason you don't see them on ships is because the slipping propellor accomplishes the same thing.

You have to get above a certain scale before it becomes cost effective. That's why you see it on railroad trains hauling thousands of tons, but not on semis hauling tens of tons. It's not even close for consumer pleasure boats. This article has some good background on it:

http://www.ossapowerlite.com/tech_library/fuel_efficiency/fuel_efficiency.htm

 

[QC]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

Yeah, great article, and it sort of confirms what I believe about Marine propulsion: A CVT is the ultimate solution . . . Control engine and propeller speeds independently to maximize efficiency of both without the losses associated with a generator and electric motor. BTW, this has even more impact on throttled (gasoline) engines than diesel.

 

[lowkee]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

I've never understood why CVT's inception didn't dump all current transmissions. No shifting, perfect engine RPM control, smooth transition between speed and power. What isn't perfect about this? The only thing I can guess is some patent issue gumming up the entire production model or it isn't sturdy enogh to take on 200K+ miles before it wears out. Heck, I'd consider a new CVT at 100K miles an okay price to pay for all of the benefits.

 

[rbh]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

CVT, isnt that just a reinvented and labeled snowmobile clutching system.

 

[high'n'dry]

Re: Electric Concept Boat In San Diego

The only way you will see widespread use of electric propulsion is when fuel cell technology is available to provide the electricity in a compact, light weight package. A boat full of batteries sounds like a nightmare, and to think, for the last 50 years Boston Whaler has built boats that will not sink, now somebody wants to make one that will sink to the bottom like a lead balloon.