Electrical help for wiring to a building.

[Gary H NC]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

Thanks for the great input guys! BP the fridge or beer cooler is a great idea too..

I have decided to stay with copper wire.Its cheaper than the aluminum if i buy it online.
I will have the electrical inspector decide on the wire size....better safe than sorry..
My neighbor knows him and he will come look at what i need at no charge..

The walls are going up this evening....The roof trusses will be here by the middle of the week. The worst part is all the digging...

 

[BoatBuoy]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

You're building a brand new man-cave and you want to put a phone in it???

 

[Gary H NC]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

You're building a brand new man-cave and you want to put a phone in it???

LOL!!! Yea,i canned the phone idea...,i have my cell if needed.
As long as i have AC and cable i am good to go.
My RV will be parked next to it for the use of the fridge until i buy another small one for under the work bench...

 

[jlinder]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

Thought of something

Have you considered how much power you have available in the house to run to your new hide away? How big of a breaker can you put in? No sense dreaming of a big power line if you can't feed it.

You may not want a phone line but you might want internet. If you are close enough to the house you can probably do wifi - easier than running wiring.

 

[heyttown]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

If it was my place, I would install a 100amp breaker in your house panel providing there is room and install a 100 amp sub panel in the shop that gives u like 24 breaker spaces for plenty of room for upgrades/welders/ without added costs of redoing your work because you went minimal in the initial install.. and run pvc conduit and #2 copper wire, you can downsize the ground if u want to save $$... the little bit of money you would save now will go out the window plus some when you run out of breaker spaces 2 yrs from now. I think 100a 24 space breaker panel is around 70 bucks if that...

 

[jlinder]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

I second that thought. Go with the max you can put in.

I doubt you would need or want any more than 60A, but the difference is pretty small.

Basic thoughts - you never want to have to do it again and no one ever sits back after the job is done and thinks "boy, am I ever sorry I have too much power available"

Remember, you will want to run 240V for the bit components like air, heat, welding, etc so you calculate that a little differently than you do 120v.

In the perfect world when you load up the 120v stuff you have half on one leg and half on the other, of course this never happens. (Odd point when that happens - ideal condigtions - you get no current in the neutral)

 

[geeco1]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

When I was thinking about putting a workshop in my backyard, I had the same discussion with myself. It basically came down to 2 options. One, run a second feed from the power pole to the shed and have a second meter, or two, run a line from the existing house meter (like Numlaar mentioned). I haven't built my shed yet, so I haven't done it yet, but the power company did not recommend coming off of the existing service panel.

On another note... run the phone line. It is easier to do it now than later. There will be times when you are talking to your lawnmower service man, and he needs a model number, or your working in the shop and someone calls re: an item that you are selling on CraigsList, etc. Yes, you could use your cell. Yes, you could use a regular wireless phone, but think of other that you have talked to when they are outside on the phone and all you hear is static. Plus many phones have the pager function so you can page your spouse to bring you a "beverage".

I would also be tempted to run cable and internet as well if possible. Again, you don't have to hook it up, but it is nice to have it if needed. You will have the trench open... put in everything that you think you will need.

 

[Bigprairie1]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

What the heck Gary....open up that trench a bit and prep it for a shop beyond the wiring alone. The more I think about it, and if you intend for it to be the ol' dream shop at some point (or not?)...put in a 1/2" water supply line and a 1" dedicated return drain line. That way if you could put in a wash basin and a macerating toilet at some point. You don't have to hook up any of this now, just have them in there. Then when you're ready...and if it ever comes to the need, you've got everything good to go.
Just thinkin' (well almost) out loud here.
BP
ps: I'm not exactly sure, but if you run internet and phone, they might have to be in a small, separate piece of conduit from your power to ensure signal continuity. So to sum up conduit for power, separate (small) conduit for communication...then 1/2" supply for water and a 3/4"-1" return for a macerator toilet....geez...I'll shut up now.

 

[windsors03cobra]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

I would use 3 #6 AWG THHN for that load. That is what I pulled about 75' to my 60A panel in the shed.
I run a 220v 3/4 hp car lift, a big 60 gallon 220v compressor and 220v wire welder.

 

[jlinder]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

Sounds like we are building the garage-ma-hall here, but the suggestions for cable,TV, and internet are pretty much right on.

Digging the trench is the really hard part. Once you have it open adding a second conduit is not much effort. Remember, the difference between doing a just OK job and doing it right is usually not that much.

Water would be a bit more (maybe). How cold it is where you are/how deep do you need to bury the copper to avoid freezing? Do you plan on keepnig the garage above freezing all the time to keep the pipes fromfreezing? Do you just need water for hosing down the car and stuff or do you need a drain? Bathroom facilities adds a good bit or requirements.

Let us know what you decide.

 

[j_martin]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

Most 60 or 100 amp feeds use aluminum direct burial cable. It's fine as long as you properly treat the connections. (There's a special anti-oxidation compound you goop up the connections with) If the insulation fails, it doesn't make much difference what the conductor is, it too will fail if you don't go broke first paying for leaking electricity.

Even if you put it in a pipe, you need to use direct burial telephone wire. It has a copper foil shield that foils the gophers pretty well, and the conductors are bathed in a goop we call icky-pick that will eventually wash off your hands with raw gasoline or something. We have a special cleaner we use (C-10) for that. I'd run 3 pair or so. If it's category 3, you could even run wired internet through it. (2 pair for that)

hope it helps
John

 

[Gary H NC]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

Thanks for all the help!
I have wireless that works fine in my camper that is parked a little farther than the building.Cable for a TV will be the only extra i really need.

I found an Electrician who is laid off and said he would wire the whole building and make the connections to the house and install the sub panel for 100 bucks labor. Sounds like a good deal...

I thought about water but really don't need it.Although the sewer connection is about 4 foot from the back of the building.

I may have a problem with the main panel at the house..it only has one empty spot for a single breaker.....I will let the electrician look at that.

Ran into tree roots from he**.......i may be renting a ditch witch...

The walls went up yesterday,the roof trusses are coming today.
I get it closed in then i will get the electrical guy working...

 

[jlinder]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

If your panel in the house is almost full you have a couple of options

1. Replace the panel.
2. Look into replacing some of the breakers with the type that will put 2 breakers into a single breaker space. This will free up some of the slots.

Number 2 is cheaper and but requires that someone has not already done that trick.

Number 1 may be needed if you check the ratings on the box and find it will not support the additional power to the garage.

 

[Gary H NC]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

Man! Finally got it all buried!

Had an electrician pick out the 2 gauge wire.He said it will handle anything i need and will never need upgraded.
Buried the power in 1 1/2 inch conduit.
Then buried the cable and phone in smaller conduit.

Started digging by hand and gave up after both hands were raw and blisters.
Went to a local rental place and got a trencher. About one hour was all it took to dig 2 foot deep..
Tree roots and rocks were no match for that thing.

Trusses showed up yesterday and i will have the roof on this weekend.
Its coming together...woo hoo!

 

[j_martin]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

If your panel in the house is almost full you have a couple of options

1. Replace the panel.
2. Look into replacing some of the breakers with the type that will put 2 breakers into a single breaker space. This will free up some of the slots.

Number 2 is cheaper and but requires that someone has not already done that trick.

Number 1 may be needed if you check the ratings on the box and find it will not support the additional power to the garage.

Most larger panels also have a set of subfeed lugs behind the mains (electrically) that can be wired to another subfeed box through a conduit with heavy conductors. The only breakers protecting it is the mains. Works well if you just need more circuit count and not ampacity.

hope it helps
John

 

[BF]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

maybe it's too late... but some good advice I received once was to pull several low voltage wires (e.g. extra multiple conductor telephone wires) through the conduit, even if you don't have a need for them at first. The logic was/is that once your man cave gets full of neat toys and/or tools you might want to put alarm triggers on the doors and glass and have them be attached as a zone to your house alarm. Maybe that can be done wireless now (?)

 

[Gary H NC]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

Most larger panels also have a set of subfeed lugs behind the mains (electrically) that can be wired to another subfeed box through a conduit with heavy conductors. The only breakers protecting it is the mains. Works well if you just need more circuit count and not ampacity.

hope it helps
John

Thanks John,

My electrician guy will be out next week to see what we need.
If i feed my other small shed off of the big one i'm building it will give me 2 open slots in the house panel.The electrical guy mentioned something similar to what you are talking about too.

My small shed is only lights that will be needed once in a while so that's not a big deal.

BF,
I should have thought of some extra wires but the building will have security lights,probably an alarm and it's inside my fenced yard with 2 really big dogs...,
I already have lights on a 15 ft. pole that come on if anyone even steps in that area of the property.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

Check the National Electrical Code at your local library. All the charts are provided. I don't know what the electrical inspectors look at when a house is sold in your area, but if they do check this out, you had best do this right. Personally I would not have aluminum wire on my property. You probably need separate breakers for the 220 service and the 120 service. That means you can't "legally" use the return for the 220 for the 120 service. This means you need 10-2/wg for the 120 side and 10-3/WG for the 220. It only means one additional line. But then all of this depends on how legal you want to be and what inspectors look for. Up here, when my house was built, the inspection tag inside the entrance panel shows the number of "actual" circuits (breakers) that were installed. If I personally add a circuit and don't get the permit, the next change to the wiring will raise the inspectors eye brows since he has a permit for one item but there are 3 more breakers than there were before. See where I'm going with this. Some areas are obviously not that closely policed so it's tough to say what you might face.

 

[Gary H NC]

Re: Electrical help for wiring to a building.

Thanks SilverTip,

I will be sure everything is up to code.I don't think they are as strict here as in your area but i don't want anything to come back and bite me.
I know if the house ever catches fire the electrical is the first thing they look at.
So far the building itself is all up to code.
My neighbor knows an inspector that has been giving me good info so far.

As far as the hooking it all up i will be glad to pay a pro to do it.