Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

[ziggy]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

it appears that electronic ign. is better for no mech. parts (points) to wear. that's gotta be good. it also appears that there's no particular performance gain that would be noticeable to the average boater. so then it makes no difference points or elec. short of minor regular maint. on the points system.
i was taught that mfg. of engines put systems together so all parts are working in harmony. if you mess with the harmony. you can effect other systems (not saying that electronic vs mech. points will effect anything in this perticular mod, just generally speaking). my engine, and the op's engine, were designed around points type ign. it was used reliably for years. my engine runs just dandy with the points ign. starts as easy as my buddys fuelie and i reach wot w/o issue. i'm not asking for any more than that. so, me personally. i'm leaving well enough alone... points for me.
i also see a lot of threads regarding ign. systems that don't work after the pertronix conversion. i suppose the folks that change get it right in the end. but why go through the grief. i'm with others that say, if it ain't broke don't fix it..

 

[IVAZ]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

Electronic ignition is much more reliable than points. Another benefit is you can get a hotter coil and increase spark plug gap for a better "burn" on combustion.
Points are cheap enough where you can just change them frequently to avoid failure. I would leave them in and replace them often.

 

[Fishermark]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

I like the Pertronix system and have installed the kit in a couple of older boats. I agree with most of the posters that you will not see a noticeable gain in performance... but there will be some gain. That gain will be measured over time. I'm old enough to remember tuning up older cars with points ignition. There was always a pretty noticeable improvement in performance after installing a new fresh set of points. With points, it is not a case of "they either work or they don't" -- their performance starts to go downhill over time as they wear out. The engine stills runs... just not as well. With the electronic system -- even a simple one like Pertronix -- it always works at peak performance.

On the flip side, as some have pointed out, having a set of points and a condenser in a zip lock bag on the boat is an easy thing to do. Myself, I have personally never had a failure on the water with either.

One thing that people may not understand, if they have never installed a Pertronix setup is that it is still easy to keep a ziplock baggie with the old points in them for emergency use. You just replace the plate with the points and you are back in business. To be honest, I have a baggie with the points in the boats I have modified - - but I really don't see me ever having to replace this system while on the water.

 

[remauto1187]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

There are some people that just don't work well with TOOLS ! And an even larger group that should be nowhere near electricity and the wiring whether it be DC or AC !

How someone could possibly screw up a pertronix install is beyond me. If I remember correctly there were even pictures in the installation instructions. It was 3 wires I think ! This was 5 or 6 yrs ago granted.

I do see the point about carrying some points in a baggy and having them ready. But i am thinking more along the lines that quite a bit of people either will not do the point maintenance until they have to (when it breaks down on the water) OR they don't know how and don't wanna know how either.....so this group is a candidate for solid state. Since whether it be bad points or a bad ignition module....they are going to have the boat towed in and wreste it on a trailer and ........ Drum Roll........Take it to a marine mechanic.

 

[bruceb58]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

We should probably all get off the board now because we know nothing.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogant

 

[remauto1187]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

We should probably all get off the board now because we know nothing.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogant

You don't have to agree with anything I say ...just like i dont have to agree with anything you say. But YOU DO have to follow the same forum rules that I do....and that includes childish name calling.

I don't really believe my previous comment involving certain people with tools and electricity was aimed at you....it was aimed at the people that installed a pertronix and still could not get the system to run. But if you feel guilty that I might be referring to you being in that bunch.....then maybe you really are just that.....GUILTY.

The rest are obviously going to stay here. I doubt I will miss you.

 

[Rocky_Road]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

Breaker points are wearing out from the time you run them new. Their gap is increasing by the minute. So in reality the trigger point time is increasing as well.

You may not notice performance gain ...but its there.

I agree with this.

Your engine will never run better than when you have just replaced the points...and every revolution of the distributor will take away from that 'perfect' setting. It all happens gradually...and you will never notice the change...until you put in the next set, and you proclaim "wow...that sure perked up the old engine!"

Why not retain the optimum performance, and eliminate the ineviatable degeneration of this setting, with a solid state trigger? You may not be increasing the performance...but you are not dealing with a physical setup, that can only go downhill.

Makes sense to me....

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

i suggest everyone read the GUIDELINES of this forum. http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=231537 then read what you have typed, before hitting "post quick reply"

 

[q5ka]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

Having installed multiple sets on various pulling tractors (closes I have to the same duty cycle or greater duty cycle) I have not seen one failure over the 10+ years I have installed them. Also an advantage of Pertronix is adding a MSD multispark. These industrial (hd) engines with the Pertronix and MSD at 2000 RPMs do help greatly. Boat motor is different than a tractor pulling motor. My antiques get only about 20 hours in 10 weeks. They are at their 100% power most of their running time. You start the motor to hook and go, idle back to where you parked and shutdown. A boat is different but I would say that maintenance wise, electronic is easier and dependable. For those that love to maintain their boat, points are best. I didn't want to adjust points 2-3 times a pull or on my boat once or twice a year. I want to hop in and after a look over, go. Give the boat its fall and spring work and fix anything along the way that needs it. Thats it. To each their own.

 

[WizeOne]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

Go for the Pertronix. Just be sure to get the II variety. Easier starts, no fluctuating dwell and no corrosion/erosion of the point tips. It is afterall, as someone already mentioned, 2009. Points were developed back before electronics were even a gleam in someones eyes.

I do have to say, in some areas I hesitate to switch from the old tried and true, but IMHO Pertronix has achieved a reasonable level of reliability.

 

[Gary H NC]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

i suggest everyone read the GUIDELINES of this forum. http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=231537 then read what you have typed, before hitting "post quick reply"

Yep.....this thread got a little out of hand.
Everyone has their own opinion i guess....

(TD standing by with his finger on the thread lock button)....

 

[bhammer]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

Your vast marine knowledge is evident with the vacume advance statement. But since you are in the aviation field maybe you can answer if aviation magnetos have points in them?

James

I am an Airframe & Powerplant technician and can answer your question. Just because the poster works for the FAA, doesn't nesecarily give him the background to talk about them. A good majority (let's say that 92.125726% of the 32.9876253% ) of FAA employees don't have the required licenses to work or fly aircraft. Yes, in general terms, mags do have points. A Mag is a complete system. Mags are very simple devices. They require no battery to work and simply work when the energy inductance to the coil caused by the rotating magnet shaft is interrupted at the strongest part of the field. There are adjustments to be made but not set life limit on most of them. I can't think of one but there may be one, a piston aircraft that does not have two Mags. The vast majority of engines also have two plugs for each cylinder and fire at the same time to have a dual flame in the cylinder. The points fail when the coil fails and is the cause of most mag failures. There is no advance timing on mags so it is always a tradeoff when timing the engine.

Now, I could get into all the detailed facts of a mag, how to adjust and rebuild, but this is a boat forum.... I have to talk aircraft (corporate jets) all day long.

Now back to the OP... I converted my 470 to the petronics and it ran just fine for a long time. I heard that one of their electronic systems had problems but they updated it and resolved the system. Something about leaving the key on and engine not running would burn them out. If you like to tinker with your boat then spend the $100 elsewhere. If you don't convert it. I left mine in my tool kit so that I could put them back on in case of emergency.

 

[boatguya1]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

Just a lowly private pilot here. I know there are points in magnetos, I was just trying to make a point after the you don't put points in airplanes comment then the FAA employee comment. (no pun intended)My appologies to the forum if my comments were out of line with forum policies.

James

 

[danond]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

Here's a vote for Pertronix. No fuss, easy install, two solid seasons, no issues. There are plenty of things to worry about when it comes to reliability on the engine, replacing points with pertronix doesn't eliminate the worry, and reliability isn't much different than points, but you're done with maintenance once you lose the points.

 

[ziggy]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

hey boatforever, did you get enough info? seems like there's only a few opinions... which way ya gonna go? out of curiosity...

 

[lucky7]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

nothing against electronics at all, but i thought that points were left in boats long after they were replaced with electronics in cars is because they degrade slowly, where electronics fail quickly, allowing you to get back to the dock.

 

[Robj]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

I have the Pertronix 1 in my boat and it works great. The only drawback is if you leave the ignition on for extended periods without the engine running, this will apparently cook the unit. There are a few ways around this, wire the power to the coil through an oil pressure switch, set to close at say 5 psi. This will only power the coil when oil pressure is present. Or get the Pertronix 2 and this is no longer a problem. I will be getting the Pertronix 2, and keeping my old one for a spare. A little more costly than points, but alot better IMO. I can change out a Pertronix unit faster than anyone can replace a set of points. You can also widen the plug gap for a hotter spark, and throw out the ballast resistor.

Have a great day,

Rob.

 

[remauto1187]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

nothing against electronics at all, but i thought that points were left in boats long after they were replaced with electronics in cars is because they degrade slowly, where electronics fail quickly, allowing you to get back to the dock.

Incorrect.... GM went to HEI solid State in late 1974 early 1975. Mercruiser finally went to Solid State in 1983. Most likely because they had alot of point ignitions left on the shelf to use up before they went to Solid State.


And many Faa techs have their pilots license and quite a few came from the defunct airline industry with their A&P license in hand. So i am guessing the previous poster with the FAA "statistics" doesn't truly know alot about the FAA.
I never claimed to know aything about magneto equipped airplanes......I worked on F/A-18C Hornets....and as you know....You don't need a A&P in the Military.

And FYI to all that don't already know. FAA technicians DO NOT work on airplanes. There is a group in the FAA called Aviation Safety Inspectors that do the inspections required on aircraft to certify them airworthy. They inspect and note any problems that the A&P mechanics have to correct.

 

[boatguya1]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

Saw a pilot the other day with a T shirt that said "FAA Moto: We're Not Happy Until Your Not Happy". This actually goes against what I've run into with our local FISDO office and most of the local ATCers. Although I'm not sure ATC is FAA anymore.

I also remember the early GM HEI ignitions. They were so bad some guys I knew actually carried 2 spare ignition modules with them. Just in case the first spare was bad out of the box. Personally I've only been let down by early HEI's twice. I don't think Merc had 9yrs worth of distributors in stock. Instead I believe they were waiting on a dependable system.

Maybe it was just me but I thought the statistics on FAA guys knowing how to work on or fly aircraft were an obvious joke.

James

 

[Don S]

Re: Electronic Ignition versus Points? Gain or No Gain

This thread is going no where.

If you want to talk about aircraft and their systems, move it over to the Non boating technical topics.