Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

[mkc1962]

Calling the Elgin guru's or anyone that has ever done it.

working on a 49-51 Elgin 401, 2.5hp

Any tricks to getting the lower unit/ water pump housing off?

Already have the prop shaft housing removed, Drive shaft gear clip removed, and of course the 1, 1/4 bolt removed. Have soaked for weeks with various solvents, and gone around mating surface with fine edge chisel. There is a threaded plug on shaft housing just above lower unit that I have also removed, at the bottom appears to be something brass (water tube if I had to guess), but no obvious way of removing. Is there some unseen something keeping the lower unit from removing?

All bigger OB's I've ever worked on the lower pulls off after the lower bolts are removed and wrst case a shift linkage unbolted, but this tiny motor has no shifter.

 

[F_R]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

Calling the Elgin guru's or anyone that has ever done it.

working on a 49-51 Elgin 401, 2.5hp

Any tricks to getting the lower unit/ water pump housing off?

Already have the prop shaft housing removed, Drive shaft gear clip removed, and of course the 1, 1/4 bolt removed. Have soaked for weeks with various solvents, and gone around mating surface with fine edge chisel. There is a threaded plug on shaft housing just above lower unit that I have also removed, at the bottom appears to be something brass (water tube if I had to guess), but no obvious way of removing. Is there some unseen something keeping the lower unit from removing?

All bigger OB's I've ever worked on the lower pulls off after the lower bolts are removed and wrst case a shift linkage unbolted, but this tiny motor has no shifter.

Nothing to it, you simply have to unbolt it--which you haven't done. You have to remove the powerhead, then drive out the pin that holds the steering swivel pin, then pull out the swivel pin, then way down in the hole it came out of you will find a nut that holds the gearcase on. As I remember it, it takes a huge screwdriver to remove the nut, but things are getting hazy at this point. You will know it when you see it.

If you are looking for the water pump, you will find it is a sliding vane pump. I had to make my own vane.

 

[mkc1962]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

FR,

Thanks for the info.

Power head is already off. Was attempting to remove the swivel shaft this morning, for other reasons, but also unaware that it had another pin holding it in. I figured it was just siezed a bit on top so have it soaking in some nut blaster. Will look for that pin you mentioned in the AM, in order to gain access to mystery nut. I figured there had to be another screw or nut somewhere.

I was using an old parts fishe I found, but I did not see any pin in the swivel shaft, or another nut/bolt. But at the same time new there was something still holding somwhere.

As for the vanes on the WP. What type of material did you use to make new ones out of?

I see based on an Elgin Web page, they (the vanes) have tolerable specs, but figured I'd probably still end out having to making new ones.

 

[F_R]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

FR,

Thanks for the info.

Power head is already off. Was attempting to remove the swivel shaft this morning, for other reasons, but also unaware that it had another pin holding it in. I figured it was just siezed a bit on top so have it soaking in some nut blaster. Will look for that pin you mentioned in the AM, in order to gain access to mystery nut. I figured there had to be another screw or nut somewhere.

I was using an old parts fishe I found, but I did not see any pin in the swivel shaft, or another nut/bolt. But at the same time new there was something still holding somwhere.

As for the vanes on the WP. What type of material did you use to make new ones out of?

I see based on an Elgin Web page, they (the vanes) have tolerable specs, but figured I'd probably still end out having to making new ones.

I made mine out of a piece of Delron, works for me---so far. But I haven't run it a lot so can't report on the durability. When you look at the thing, it seems like the vane length should match the diameter of the pump housing. Not so. It is a physically impossible thing for it to fit in there if over the spec length. And if too short, it won't pump at slow speeds. Get it right and it will work very well at all speeds. "Right" is defined as being as long as it can be and still allow the shaft to rotate completely around.

 

[mkc1962]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

DELRON?

Would think being in the plastics business I'd have heard of such, but even though sounding familiar doesnt ring a bell. Have heard of DELRIN. Is that some sort of hard plastic, or is it more like the old style bakelite, similar to circuit boards? Where can one obtain some?

Gotcha on the dimensions thing

 

[F_R]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

DELRON?

Would think being in the plastics business I'd have heard of such, but even though sounding familiar doesnt ring a bell. Have heard of DELRIN. Is that some sort of hard plastic, or is it more like the old style bakelite, similar to circuit boards? Where can one obtain some?

Gotcha on the dimensions thing

Are you pulling my leg? That's ok, I'll laugh along with you. But if you are serious, you must know that I mis-spelled the word.

 

[Ned L]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

When I replaced one a number of years ago the original that came out looked like some sort of Garolite, so that is what I used to make a new one. (I was lucky enough to have a piece laying around.)

 

[mkc1962]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

Are you pulling my leg? That's ok, I'll laugh along with you. But if you are serious, you must know that I mis-spelled the word.

LOL...well now if you look at my reply time it was awful late in the shift..Yawwwn...No actually there is a product called DELRON, but I could only find fasteners, not sheet...then I remembered DELRIN...and I wondered ..did he just mispell that...dunno, lets ask!!

Delrin is supposed to be good stuff for such an application. Our plastic (Lexan) however is not. We do offer a similar product , but sadly dont make it at my plant

Thanks again for the info on removal, got that drift pin out this morning but that swivel shaft is many years stuck so still soaking

NED,

Havent heard of that one...do some research on it this eve. Most all of those old original plastic types (commonly seen with the subtitle LITE) are hardly made anymore due to the excess amount of phenol used in the manufacturing process, and the EPA's tight guidlines on its use. But Sometimes can still be found. Either way you both got me on the same path for replacement.

 

[the machinist]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

If you go to the Frequently Asked Questions at the start of this repair section & down near the bottom is a link to my 9.9/15 hp OMC repairs.

Also on this link I am currently in the process of doing a restoration article on this 2.5 1947/51 Elgin motor, which you will find at the very bottom of the Johnson/Evinrude articles.

Hope this helps.

LeeRoy

 

[Ned L]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

Mike: Yes, Garolite is one of the phenolic impregnated fabric materials. Delrin should work fine, my only thought is I'm not sure how well it will wear.

 

[mkc1962]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

LeeRoy,

Thanks will check it out here shortly.

NED,

I did some more searching on the DELRIN stuff. Actually come Highy rated for similar applications. Of course I still have not even gotten to the pump. That darn pivot shaft is the worst stuck piece to date on this project. Been soaking,heating,tapping all week now and still no movement.

 

[mkc1962]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

LeeRoy

Great write up...need to spend more time reading but one section you wrote surely has given me a sigh of relief

You do not have to remove the pivot shaft. I have never been able to remove this shaft as it always seems to be seized into the leg, as the upper holes do not allow enough pressure to be applied & using a small pipe wrench just collapses the hollow shaft. But restoration can usually be accomplished without removing it anyway.

Did you by chance ever find a good source for those prop shaft seals?

 

[the machinist]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

I have found some seals that may work & are on order. They are the right ID & OD & if they work they are thin enough that I can place 2 back to back on the prop output shaft sealing water out & grease in. Should have them in next week.

LeeRoy

 

[F_R]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

LeeRoy
You do not have to remove the pivot shaft. I have never been able to remove this shaft as it always seems to be seized into the leg, as the upper holes do not allow enough pressure to be applied & using a small pipe wrench just collapses the hollow shaft. But restoration can usually be accomplished without removing it anyway.

OK, I give up, how do you get to the water pump without removing the swivel shaft?

 

[mkc1962]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

LeeRoy,

Good to hear. If you would, contact me either here or at mkc_1962@yahoo.com, if they seem to work.

I found another source last night, here is the link, tell me what you think about this.

http://www.elginoutboardparts.com/

Though the page does not seem complete, He does show the seals and gasket for the lower end for the smaller motors. And, as at the bottom is says copyright 2010 I assume that its an up to date site.

FR,

I did notice the other day that when I stick a long screwdriver down into that hollow swivel shaft, that is does bottom out, but I did not know that there was anything down there. If I view the parts fische correctly as well as Understand "Mechanic", at the bottom of that hollow shaft is a slotted head barrel nut. Other end of the shaft that this nut is on is the lower foot(water pump). I need to clean all the gunk out of the end of mine and see if I can see this slotted head? makes sense to me, just didnt know it was there. Working a long rotation now so will be afew days before I can get back to working on mine.,But I do plan to alteast tonight when I get home, do a quick flushing and see if I can find that slotted head. Then a few days soaking to assist cant hurt.

 

[mkc1962]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

Back to the topic of water pump vane again.

I think I found what will make the prefect vane, as bakelite and garolite are near impossible to find. And Delrin, none seem to know for sure how long it might last. My original career path, many years ago was in Electronics maintenance/repair. I remembered the old printed circuit boards were a phenolic based board, in the very early days they WERE bakelite, due to insulation qualities. Over the years they changed, but to date they still are phenolic or similar based boards. However, 1/8" is the harder size find, but not impossible. Radio shack, or similar even carries what I am referring to in the plain undrilled form. Luckily, I work in a place where old circuit boards are found in the trash bins near every day. And by luck I stumbled upon a rather nice size piece of 1/8". Will update with results/photos at a later date after removal of the original, and visual comparison. But, from what I remember of bakelite, this is near identical.

 

[the machinist]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

F_R Maybe you & I are not thinking the same as for the "Swivel shaft" to me that means the hollow shaft that the motor swivels on for steerage. This shaft has nothing to do with the water pump except provide a place for the upper hidden nut 7" down that attaches to the 1/4" rod that goes all the rest of the way down the "leg" housing into the top of the gearbox. Once the gearbox is off then the water pump can be withdrawn down & out.

Just today I changed & added the following to my article
**************

Water Pump: This sliding vane type water pump can be identified by the water inlet holes located on the lower left side of the leg casting.

SECRET #1 To work on the water pump or pull all the gears from the gearcase, requires removal of the lower unit or "Leg" as the factory calls it from the powerhead. Drive out the 5/32" cross pin in the leg just below where the transom bracket pivot is located in the leg. This is a slightly tapered pin & if as original should be driven out from left to right. Under it is a slotted screwdriver nut. You will need a long (8" reach) preferably square shanked large screwdriver that will just fit inside of the hollow pivot shaft. Not having an old large long screwdriver around (& I did not want to modify a new one) I made one out of a 7/16" rod that just slid inside of the hollow pivot shaft & welded a Tee handle onto it. The bit width that fit screw head was just under 1/16". Care should be taken as to use as close a fitting screwdriver blade as possible so as to not ruin the nut slot with a undersize blade. When you feel the blade going into the slot, tap the screwdriver with a hammer being sure the blade is seated in the slot. If it is initially resisting being unscrewed, pressure needs to be forced down as you turn the handle with a Crescent wrench on the square shank to break it free. If there is any indication of rust, it may be imperative that you soak this with penetrating oil. When pouring it in the hollow shaft if you get too much, it will just run out the cross pin hole.

You do not have to remove the pivot shaft. I have never been able to remove this shaft as it always seems to be seized into the leg, as the upper holes do not allow enough pressure to be applied & using a small pipe wrench just collapses the hollow shaft. If you do deform this shaft, you need to remedy the situation before reassembly. But restoration can usually be accomplished without removing it anyway.

This nut mentioned above holds in a long 1/4" rod that secures the gearcase to the leg. Look at the schematic below. With the nut loose & the other rear screw out of the gearcase, the gearcase & the 1/4" threaded rod that you just unscrewed the nut from can be removed out the bottom of the leg.

SECRET #2 You need to do 2 more things also not very obvious. That is to remove the gearcase rear cover, take the prop shaft & driven gear out & somewhat clean the inner cavity & drive gear. On the very bottom & below the drive gear is a snap retainer ring on the splined shaft. This snap ring has to be removed before the gearbox unit & the long screw that you just removed the nut from can be withdrawn out the bottom. After the snap ring is removed, dig it out of the empty gearbox before it gets lost. This snap ring holds the drive gear to the water pump shaft.

SECRET #3 Also there is a 1/4" slotted head dog point screw showing just above the water intake screen holes that is a retainer for the water pump. This may have to have the penetrating oil application & heat also. This screw also has to be removed to allow the water pump to be withdrawn out the bottom, so it may behoove you to remove it after you remove the drive gear retainer snap ring so that everything can come out the bottom at the same time. I have seen these retainer screws made in either steel or brass, with the brass ones easier to remove.

The gearbox can be removed without the removing the water pump unit, but it is easier to do them together.

 

[mkc1962]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

MY lower unit was successfully removed last night in just a few minutes after I got home. All the soaking of Pentrating oil no doubt helped. Now on to the waterpump, next off day.

 

[F_R]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

Machinist, you and I are on the same page, except I didn't realize you could go down through the hollow shaft to get the nut off. Good point.

On to secret #2: It's been awhile, but darned if I remember having to remove the pinion gear. But I won't dispute it. I did totally strip mine down and install new seals.

 

[mkc1962]

Re: Elgin 2.5 lower unit removal

FR,

And to add to machinists reply...as its a very good point based on my expereince last night....he states somewhere, that when you do access that nut, with the long screwdriver, to gently drive the screw driver down into the slot with a small hammer and make sure the driver is well seated into that nut...I can vouch as its fresh, that is a very tight narrow slot. Luckily I did happen to have the proper size driver to not booger it up and get it out.

where was it that you were you able to obtain the seals?