EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

[dickjorkey]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

anyone can give me a hint?

 

[seahorse5]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

The report shows that the EMM got too hot 10 times with the last occurrence at 266 hours. Chances are the internal parts are stressed and are giving you the 3 lights which indicates an internal EMM malfunction. Contact dfitechnologies.com

You've had a water in the fuel filter code 199 times.

 

[daselbee]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Yes, 199 times it detected water in fuel, last time was at 286:12, which is the current hour count on your engine. So it is detecting water in the fuel NOW. There is a slender sensor in the fuel filter on the port side, low down. Looks like a spin on oil filter. Spin it off, and slide id down as to remove it, and you will see the sensor coming out the top as you slide it down., It is a fragile thing. Multimech....you saying that if I put my EMM on his engine, no start, just power up.....re-program the parameters to match his injectors as I have retrieved then using my IPhone, into my EMM, then run the engine. When stopped, the parameters will be changed? I have done this before and never had the parameters change on me....Is this what you are talking about? Is it a bug in their software? Of the four parameters, which parameter changes?

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

change the engine mounted fuel filter to resolve the check engine light. there is a water sensor inside it and it warns you for good reasons of contaminated fuel.

check the impeller and maybe change it to verify you have a good volume of cooling water which also affects the EMM, check twice all EMM related cooling houses to verify they look fine, the just run the boat and look.

i do not think you have a shot EMM. the overheat protection is designed to shut off before damaging temperatures occour because its build for this- and its not always the nightmare with the fichts you read on forums.

cheers

 

[multimech]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Daselbee, I'm not sure my experience will be what your experience. How did you get the parameters for the injectors with your Iphone? The only way I know to get them from an engine like this (older D.I. Ficht) is to install new injector files for each injector and save the old profiles to a place you can retrieve them, or to have original injector files, probably on a floppy disk. I do know that BRP has all the injector files from everyone ever produced, but they will not give them to a non dealer, you know liability and all. I am really really curious about how you got the files with an Iphone. seriously!


So in dealing with these non standard files, things do change under certain conditions. For example I cloned a 250 D.I. EMM to a 200 profile. Installed the saved injector files to that clone. After running the engine it did not run well, it ran and it got W.O.T. but it was "off". Printed out an engine report and I saw all the injector parameters had "walked" over by a digit or two. Comparing the engine reports I could see the injector parameters on the cloned EMM to be way off. Simply installing them on a different EMM may prove different. However, check the engine report and compare the parameters to his original engine report to ensure they installed correctly.

BTW, when I was researching my problem with the clone EMM I found out, kind of by talking with the BRP tech support guy, BRP has a built in fault when playing with the injectors. They do it to keep people from playing around with them and then being responsible for the engine blowing up. I don't know if your case is the same, but you will need to check the profiles to ensure they copied correctly. I mean check each digit against his old engine report.

I am sure his EMM is a goner. The overheat of the EMM is evident by the engine report, although it is not as high as I would expect to see, and the three lights do not indicate it is getting hot, there are a couple of codes with definite lights and actions for them, which do not include the three lights. Every one I have ever seen with the 3 lights had a fault on the circuit board that would open up when the EMM got warm. The damage has already been done.

I got through a number of these old D.I. fichts at work each month. They are a nightmare (smiling at you aerobat, in a freindly way) and one of the weak points they have is that old style EMM. Along with injectors, relays, PDPs, oil pumps and generally being finicky. That is why they went to the ETec which is a completely different animal.

 

[daselbee]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Now you have opened a can of worms re: BRP and their close hold on the injector parameters. I have a very strong personal opinion on their practice of withholding that information. It is downright dirty business and I can use harsher words. Basically they fall back on the "liability" excuse, but in reality, they can sell injectors at 750 a pop to those poor saps that accidentally lose the parameter info, or those that want to use an injector from a blown engine....or if some poor sap loses their EMM info, it requires six new injector purchases, and it is not likely the engine is even worth that much money when you add in the labor etc. It is strictly a sales gimmick used by BRP, and IT STINKS.

Now, I can absolutely shoot holes in that "liability" argument. Say they withhold injector information because of liability...then why do they encode the same info into QR codes that are placed on the labels of all injectors newer than 2002? If they were truly worried about liability, they would not code the four parameters into that QR code.
OK, now you are going to question the validity of what I just posted....fine. Get an IPhone, download, install an app called I-nigma, and point the phone at the QR code on an injector that you know the parameters of, without doubt. Maybe a new one in a box, since you apparently have access to stuff like that. Match the info the IPhone gives you to what you know to be true.
You cannot do this with an injector that has an old style bar code. All that info is just the serial number.

I have asked two dealers here in FL to provide me with the injector parameters for injectors with the bar code only type label. One guy who I have a great working relationship with contacted BRP, and BRP refused to give out that info to even the dealer. The other dealer looked at me like I was from Mars. He was only interested in selling a new injector, period.

Now, you say the dealers can get such info. I will PM you six injector serial numbers.....get the info. Betcha you can't.

To address the walking digit issue....this is a programming problem with the diag software. I have seen it happen ONCE, when I first got my copy of the diag software. (My version is 4.5). I noticed the digits were "off" but played around with the operation of the software...i.e. saved the injector info, disconnected the EMM, powered down the EMM, re-powered, reconnected, and verified that what I put in was still there. I had to "fool with it" a bit to find a routine that consistently retained the digits as I entered them.

The excuse from BRP that you got regarding "a hidden built in fault" is just malarkey. What reputable company would open themselves up to such an obvious liability issue? Consider a poorly trained, but nevertheless "authorized" BRP mechanic that forgets about the "built in fault" and just slap the numbers in and ships it...
There are some real sh***y BRP authorized dealers/mechanics out there...for sure!

Anyway...the walking digit can be avoided by saving the parameters, powering down, powering up, and verifying.
And I still bet that you cannot get the injector info from BRP for an injector that only has a serial number bar code on it, dealer or no dealer.

By the way multi.....a personal word from me to you....take a bit of advice. Think outside the box. There are other ways to do things than the official dealer approved way of doing things. You are stuck in the BRP approved rut. You know...you could do it the "anecdotal" way...

 

[multimech]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Thanks for the info. It really is interesting and could be helpful if I have a side job to get right.

However, you are right that I am in a box as far as BRP goes and in the box as far as my employer is concerned.

For my employer I must make accurate repairs in good time. It is not done to charge a customer hours for me to play with the software to get it right. As far as the software is concerned I had always doubted BRPs story , however I have never had the time to play with it. If the profiles are wrong I contact BRP and let them deal with it. They do that by providing an alternate profile to install, it always works the first time. We don't fool around with old injectors, we either have the profile (a known accurate one) or they get a new injector.

As far as a mechanic forgetting about the fault. He would need to be completely incompetent, unskilled and would face firing for letting one go out with the parameters screwed up. The running of the engine alone would be a sure sign of the screw up. BRP always demands an engine report and I am sure at times a dealer may mess with the parameters to get them right to send to BRP, but that is a conspiracy story in itself. The responsibility would then go to the dealer and that poor mechanics boss would be most upset, if he is anything like mine.

Another idea about the liability not only includes engines running without blowing up, they also must meet EPA standards, so no profile goes out without BRP approval and documented work done on an engine. That is why we save all engine reports on engines that we work on and BRP always demands the records if there is a claim. For instance we can get updated profiles for injectors of the old style that the pintels wear with time. BRP will do it under certain conditions to get the engines to run correctly, again this is an EPA thingy.

I understand doing work outside of the parameters established by BRP, I don't have the leisure to do so. I do thank you for the info. If I choose to do a buddy a favor it will help immensely, for a paying customer of my shop, not so much.

Back to the post at hand. I know of absolutely no code thrown by the EMM which lights three lights with no code, it certainly is not overheating and going into S.L.O.W. I am pretty sure it is an inbuilt, undocumented code that lets someone know the EMM is having a real problem and needs to be fixed. I'll bet money on the fact that the circuit board is getting warm and losing a connection, a physical problem.

 

[daselbee]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

I agree with all of the above post. I could tell from past posts that you were on a tight leash so to speak.
Try the IPhone app. You will be pleased.
I don't have the luxury of having BRP at my call. I have to make do with what I have to work with, and (too bad, so sad) the customers that bring their boats to me have little money. They need a fix, and they need it cheap. Not poor quality workmanship, but not 6 grand in charges for 6 new injectors and labor either....you get my drift, I hope.

And you analysis of the OPs problem is right on, I think. His EMM has a cold solder joint of the board somewhere, and when that point heats up, three light salute. It is a common issue I truly believe.
Too bad DFI is the only game in town...and they know it.

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

They are a nightmare (smiling at you aerobat, in a freindly way) and one of the weak points they have is that old style EMM. Along with injectors, relays, PDPs, oil pumps and generally being finicky. That is why they went to the ETec which is a completely different animal.

i respectfully disagree with you . first, the ETEC is not a completely different animal. both incorporate a 2 stroke high pressure direct fuel injection done by electro-magnetic injectors. the main difference is that ficht has the electro magnetic pulse on the plunger only on the stroke and spring loaded on the return where ETEC uses magnetic pulses on both movements of the injector. beyond that ETEC uses improvements with lessons from fichts learned- but its the same technology .

ficht is the father of ETEC and was a revolution when introduced, far ahead its time . IMO only the first fichts ( pre 2000 ) were bad by design . with introduction of the ficht "ram" with water cooled EMM , pinned heads and new sensors they made a runner out of it , but with an financial effort that runied them . i guess even OMC did not understood this technology initially.

the engine keeps to be complicated as hell where the ususal DIY user makes much wrong believing he makes it right . and DIY as well poor maintanance becomes an issue since these engine are aging now. especially the ficht hates both things stated above.

my personal experience with a 150 V6 ficht ram was a overall troublefree time over years with only some minor problems . the key was to accept its special needs in maintanance and beyond that leaving it alone.

to get back to the topic i believe the OP has for some reason an overheating EMM which automatically shuts down and that are the three lights until it cooles. he must find out why it overheats , sure. but this three lights are self protection of the EMM , not a shot EMM. and i guess DFI "rebuilded" tons of "shot" EMM with just cleaning them out internally for a good water passage ...

lets see what it is !

 

[daselbee]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

to get back to the topic i believe the OP has for some reason an overheating EMM which automatically shuts down and that are the three lights until it cooles. he must find out why it overheats , sure. but this three lights are self protection of the EMM , not a shot EMM. and i guess DFI "rebuilded" tons of "shot" EMM with just cleaning them out internally for a good water passage ...

lets see what it is !

Very good point about the DFI "rebuilds tons of them". They know exactly what this issue is, I bet.

Aero, just for a point of clarification, the EMM I was dealing with only needed "key on" for a minute or so, maybe 2 mins, before it gave the three light salute. It did not need engine running, and therefore the water cooling thru the EMM was not possibly an issue.

I have running parameters that I just took off my engine E225FHLSRM, at idle if anyone wants to see them.
I can provide injector #1 serial number, and the first guy that posts the matching four parameters wins a case of their favorite beer on me, delivered to your house by courier!!! In fact, I will post the #1 injector serial number here and NOW:

032040500339183, and just to prove...the first parameters are: 33,257,1108. So what is the last parameter? It is eight digits....
I have read these numbers from my cell phone as described above.

 

[daselbee]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

I think this is a highly educational thread, so I will post the running monitored parameters from my engine, from the 4.5 version software, as I read them from the monitor page:
There are a few parameters missing, because they are not important..i.e. engine ser number, software revisions, etc. The numbers I post are from the running engine, and seem to be the more important numbers...

Oil pulse freq= 3.8 cyc/min
Start of fuel= 40*BTDC
Fuel duration= 6.1 ms
Ign Angle= 21.1 *
Ign Delay= 1.0ms
Equiv. Angle= 334*
Dwell= 3.38
Monitor Time= 500ms

TPS Voltage= 0.68v
System Voltage= 35-40v varying
BAtt Volt= 14.3

Exhaust pressure= 2.2 in


Now, do these parameters look OK on a running, injector programmed, 225 2004 model at idle for about 15 mins.

Cyl temps were 125 degrees, and EMM temp was 104 degrees.

It was on muffs.

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Aero, just for a point of clarification, the EMM I was dealing with only needed "key on" for a minute or so, maybe 2 mins, before it gave the three light salute. It did not need engine running, and therefore the water cooling thru the EMM was not possibly an issue.

yes, but the story of the OP is different. when i understood it correct the boat runs until the EMM overheats and auto shuts down. then he gets the three lights and cannot restart it until ( the EMM ) cools down. then he can run again until it begins by new. the cause of overheating is not solved and the EMM just protects itself again and again . thats not a shot but only overheated EMM, of course you can try it until you really kill it finally.

when it comes to the injector parameters - we sorted out they are stored and protected carefully by brp. so no beer, but no surprize.

 

[daselbee]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

It would be tough to deliver you a case to Germany anyway.....and expensive. But c'mon guys...give that last parameter and win a case...I guarantee I will deliver....


EDIT: Oh and the OP has vanished I see. He never took me up on my offer to swap an EMM in...just questioned why I wanted to do such a thing....ah well....

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

37047734 is the last digit. if you have another result your cellphone app is junk or your injector fake

to understand this parameter fully you must type the digit on your cellphone and then invert the phone.

btw -i prefer czech budweiser

yes, the OP seems off, but the thread is great to learn about fichts, most people do no understand that engines and their special needs , so call it bad . i disagree here.

and its a fact that a 10 years old ficht ram will in regards to holeshot and throttle response take it up with a 2013 4stroke EFI.

 

[dickjorkey]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Hello folks. I have some updates about my engine.

Yesterday I bought a new water/fuel separator and the filter you guys recommended to check. It was a pain in the butt to get it out, but it wasn't gonna win over me. Apparently it still had the original filter from the dealer. It is good to know that at least I was able to solve one problem. The check engine light for water in fuel went away.

Today I took it out to a lake and after 20 minutes or so of running the engine, the light went on. I checked to see if there was water running through the emm and indeed there was a river flowing through it. I placed my hand on the emm and it felt very hot. Mind you, the weather was 90 so degrees out there. I'm not sure if this had anything to do with such hotness. At one point I turned off the engine and the three lights came on. Afterwards the engine would not turn on. I guess because of the security function that the emm has.

Also, Dasalbee I quite doubted your message just because now in days you don't know who is behind a computer (Safety reasons). I'm a young buck therefore I got to be careful. (Hope you understand my point)

So at this point I want to ask for Y'all recommendation. Should I invest a few bucks in having the emm rebuilt? I have checked "every" water passage and I could not find any blockage. I changed the filters as I mentioned and it did fix the check engine light at startup. By the way, I purchased this boat on May 18th/13. It seems as the last owner sort of had the boat abandoned in a backyard. Its feasible that no maintenance was done to it.

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

are you sure that you are looking at the water exit hose of the emm ? there are two hoses to the emm, do you remove the upper or lower hose and see water flushing ?

 

[daselbee]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

To win the beer, one must post the last parameter. And to post the last parameter, one must get it from BRP, by serial number. Aero strikes out....but you can try again. You only need 99999998 more guesses...

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

dasalbee- the number was a joke- type into your calculator that number and inveert it to read

seriously. not sure if i get your intentions right. nobody can say you the injector parametars from the serial number here and you could neither if i give you a serial of an injector. or do you want to tell us you are able to read via an freeware iphone app the injector parametars from a serial number or the barcode on the injector ?

 

[daselbee]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Huh? It has been stated here that dealers can get the injector parameters by providing only the serial number. I contend they cannot. Case of beer to the guy that proves me wrong. That is the intent. And YES I can read the parameters...look at post #26 again.

 

[multimech]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

The Etec and the Ficht are the same as the model T engine is the same as modern engine. There is no comparison to made really. Of course they built on the technology, just as car manufacturers have built upon existing technology in cars. Are you trying to say that ypu would prefer a Model T engine to a fuel injected engine of today or even a carburated engine of a 1960 vintage? All three of those engines use the same functional parameters. Suck, bang, blow. They are worlds apart in how they do it. The Etec is a different animal, thank god. What are the special needs in EMMs that go south, injectors that drop pintals and an engine that becomes a sticky mess from it's archaic oiling system? That is why they went the way of the dodo and for good reason.

The three lights is not self protection, it indicates the EMM is kaput.

Daselbee, you are absolutely correct that a serial number alone will not get you an injector profile, you must also put in a checksum that matches the injector serial number.