EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Huh? It has been stated here that dealers can get the injector parameters by providing only the serial number.

well, that was not my statement. but its very interesting you say you can read the parametars via i-nigma. so the parametars are stored secretly in the qr code on the placard a injector has and i-nigma can read it ???

The Etec and the Ficht are the same as the model T engine is the same as modern engine. There is no comparison to made really. Of course they built on the technology, just as car manufacturers have built upon existing technology in cars. Are you trying to say that ypu would prefer a Model T engine to a fuel injected engine of today or even a carburated engine of a 1960 vintage? All three of those engines use the same functional parameters. Suck, bang, blow.

i,m not saying a ficht is better than etec because its not , but saying both engines have not more in common than suck bang blow is IMO not correct. after decades of carbed 2strokes the ficht was the beginning of the electonically controlled high pressure direct fuel injection evinrude age . and thats exactly how today an etec works and significantly different how a carbed 2stroke works.

without the ficht an etec would never happen.

carbed V6
1996 Johnson 225 Ocean Pro - YouTube

V6 ficht
225 Evinrude Ficht Injection Outboard Idling - YouTube

V6 etec
starting up the evinrude E-tec 250-v6 Beast! - YouTube

 

[multimech]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

OK OK Both the Ficht and the Etec share common components (fuel injectors, coils, sensors) with automotive engines, so they are not so different. See how that works. It is a different animal because it uses better technology than Fichts, in running and reliability it is worlds ahead of the Ficht. Oh yeah and the parts were not made between 1999 to 2000. Ha ha. A joke my friend. Peace.

 

[dickjorkey]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

I might have just confirmed that the issue is still related to water in fuel. I ran another report today and the check engine light that it gives is code 37. The report does not show any other stored faults for over heat. As I showed before, the over heating problem has only happened ten times.

So it seems as water in fuel also give three lights salute.

 

[multimech]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

"So it seems as water in fuel also give three lights salute."

Really dickjorkey? You have a standing ovation from me and everyone else who works on these engines. Something we never realized before. A most startlingly simple thing that no one at BRP, DFI or a host of BRP dealers across this great country ever even knew, that there is a super secret code (the three lights) that EMMs will throw if they detect water in the fuel. I would imagine that certain in the know people would be the only ones privy to this little secret....Bhaaaw Joke alert. This is a funny....people.

Dickjorkey, send your EMM out to DFI or get a remanned unit from BRP. Yours is dead. Kaput. Will not work as it should ever again. Take my word and many others on this forum who have worked with these beasts for years. It is not a normal code and it has nothing to do with water in the fuel.

And this "the over heating problem has only happened ten times." These things don't like to get baked and that is exactly what happened in "only" ten times. Use reason, logic and a bit of humility to take some good advice and go with it.

I do empathize with you on this. They are expensive. I will guarantee that your EMM has bad board and is losing a connection when heated up (I mean normal heat conditions) and is experiencing shutdown. Plain and simple. Bite the bullet and make your decision.

 

[multimech]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

:joyous:

 

[dickjorkey]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Alright, I will follow your advise. However, before I speak to anyone in DFI or consider having the emm rebuilt, I will try one last thing.

I'm gonna get a temporary fuel tank; clean from any h2o residues and run the engine for a few minutes again. If the engine does not throw the lights again, this is my problem. If it continues I will send it to DFI.

For your info, I cleaned both fuel filters and the light went away.

As a last note. Multimech, I know you're an expert with these engines. In contrast, this is the first time I have touched one of these engines and I'm just doing self tests by what I read and ascertain in the long run. I have read plenty of threats online and the only solution given to everyone is (Send your emm to DFI or BRP). This is an amazing way of marketing a company to fix an easy issue, I bet.

After scrutinizing the reports which the software throws, I've concluded that there is a software version and revision. I wouldn't be astonished if at DFI all they do is upgrade the software version of my EMM and bamm the issue is fixed. Same way as Microsoft never stops releasing service packs to patch sowftware bugs in the OS. Every electronically software works the same. I highly doubt DFI has a chinese person replacing capacitors in these emm boards. :x

Anyways, I will give an update next time. I'm sure this will help someone else in the future to fix the same issue I am having.

Reading is knowledge and practice makes perfection. Therefore, I will continue trying.

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

ficht was the beginning of the electonically controlled high pressure direct fuel injection

Not a high pressure system...just a standard DI, Yamaha is high pressure about 700psi!!!.

I've concluded that there is a software version and revision. I wouldn't be astonished if at DFI all they do is upgrade the software version

Thats part of the repair....There are qiute a few versions software. The 1999-2001 60? motors averaged 2 revision a month due to problems. Daselbee I'll check with a buddy at BRP and see if field rep software will retrive this info on injectors...

 

[multimech]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

I understand Diskjorkey. I had a bad case of smartass last night.

My first experience was when it threw the three lights on a boat I was working with and I could find no reference in any of the manuals for it. I called Dealer Tech support and was given the answer "It needs to be replaced". Perhaps this is a code that is thrown for engineers meaning it has a problem. I have never seen one that was resolved any other way.

Sure get the software updates. They usually are for adding a function or to stop it from giving a false signal at a certain RPM. Perhaps in this case it may work for you. Good luck.

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Not a high pressure system...just a standard DI, Yamaha is high pressure about 700psi!!!.

i think ficht injection is generally achnowledged to be a high pressure system - quoting here from wikipedia :

"The high-pressure direct injector for two-stroke engines was developed in the early 1990s by Ficht GmbH of Kirchseeon Germany. Outboard Marine Corporation (OMC) licensed the technology in 1995 and introduced it on a production outboard engine in 1996.[51][52] OMC purchased a controlling interest in Ficht in 1998.[53] "


@mulitmech : i see you do not like fichts and its fine, so no need to argue about it. you can google by yourself if ETEC is an improvement of ficht or a completely different design like you claim...

@dickjorkey : nobody can see your boat actually so its hard to say. but be aware that finally you will be asked for serious money based on internet experts recommendation. nobody will pay you off here if you send your EMM to dfi for a no needed rebuilt and at the end of the day you had only a clogged up emm with restricted water passage , a bad vapor separator or not fully opening t-stats.

i personally would in any case search for the reason of the overheat , it sounds odd you can start and run your boat when the EMM is damaged.

 

[multimech]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

I don't need to google anything about Fichts and Etecs, I work on them every day of the week. I have been to BRP school on multiple occassions.

You come here and argue with people about high pressure and if the Ficht injector is considered high pressure. What does it matter? HPDI engines inject and 700 psi and 1000 psi (give or take) that IS a high pressure system. 250 psi is a hell of a lot lower than 700 or a 1000, do we then call those super high pressure? Does it matter?

I don't like Fichts because I work on them on a regular basis and have for many years. They are different to the Etecs in many ways. Although, I will agree with you, they BOTH use the same concept as just about every other fuel injected engine and have most of the same sensors. If you cannot understand that they are different in reliability, cleanliness, control, built in engine safety features, design of the engine (new, improved material) then I don't know how to make it any clearer. The Fichts suck and was one of the reasons that OMC went down. I never said it was a completely different design, I said it was a different animal. Would you not agree that most animals have the same features....eyes....mouth...nose...ears and etc? Would you not agree that a Tiger is a completely different animal to a Sloth? If you can answer that with honesty and a real understanding of what I just said, then I will be happy.

As far as the OP problem is concerned, we won't be paying for him doing everything under the sun to fix his problem either, or paying his bill to be towed in with his family when it goes wrong again. A few of us are absolutely sure of the same problem we have seen with Ficht EMMs over the years. I know for certain the three lights are (to BRP anyway) not documented and not a normal signal for an overheat. The codes for that are quite certain and laid out as are the reactions of the engine for the problem. I had a BRP technical support guy tell me that I needed to change the EMM when I told him what I had seen (3 lights) the very first time I ever incountered this problem. The OP can do what he wants to of course.

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Calm down Multimech .. .... Arebat didnt even know that 60?fichts ran on random cylinders till a couple of months ago and everybody thats wrenches knows the Etech is a different beast. The Ficht after 2000 gradually got better but never got prefect and the Etech is not fool proof either as I have saw several Etechs sawed nearly in half !!! Heck I will even post a picture of my Ficht with the rod hanging thru the front reed block and intake .
Areobat here are a few Ficht problems and these are only a 4 month issue...
Water intrusion thru cowling TSB2379
Water intrusion thru splash pans TSB2378
Fuel restriction from cowling TSB2368
EMP from SAC creating hard or no start TSB2363
Throttle slack causing improper running TSB2357&2356&2355
False code 23 & 24 TSB2354
False code 12 ,13,14 TSB2352
Hard starting /Vapor lock TSB2351
Lift pump failures TSB2346
Daselbee have a PDF file coming :yo:

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

gents, for me there is really no need to argue about fichts. i "defend" them just not agreeing that every ficht sucks by design - talking about the post 2000 improved fichts especially.

that said not by being an absolute expert about them but as an onwer who had an improved 150 V6 and several succesful boating years with it and learned much about it from practical use. a friend has a 115 V4 and can say the same. no blown engine, no other nightmares.

you have to respect that the engine has its special needs ( clinically clean fuel, correctly gapped and indexed plugs, only evinrude Xd50 or 100 oil, do not screw on it when you do not exactly know what you do ) and the improved ficht should run.

when a ficht runs, it runs great , pretty close to an etec and miles away from the best carbed 2 stroke. and compare how many threads you find here about fichts and how many threads you find here about carbed evnirudes ...

you are the experts- and recommend to just rebuild the EMM when the engine starts and runs great but the EMM after time overheats or even use the whole engine as an anchor because fichts generally suck...

 

[multimech]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Aye Fatzbullet, I know of the problems with the Etecs as well. I have become a real Yamaha fan over the past few years the more I work with them. Been grumpy lately hobbling around work with Sciatica pain which was increased when I checked Aerobats links to three different engines idling on a garden hose! The conversation sort of went downhill after that.

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Been grumpy lately hobbling around work with Sciatica pain which was increased when I checked Aerobats links to three different engines idling on a garden hose!

sorry to hear about your pains dude. you really should try to bang a woman instead of making knuckle babies to internet movies all day long, then you would be far more relaxed and would better understand the three idling engines comparision video. :joyous:

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

for me there is really no need to argue about fichts. i "defend" them just not agreeing that every ficht sucks by design - talking about the post 2000 improved fichts especially.

If your going to try an defend something at least know something about it ..not from a wiki or google posting... Heres some more infomation so you can learn:
The ficht engineering design is a decent design, but design flaws in pistons,blocks,software kill the old engines. Software issues such as a injector going to idle while engine was WOT, EMM damage from EMP from the SAC,false codes,rectifier burnout inside EMM, eetc. The block went thru different oiling revisions as fuel spray was washing lube off top ring(yama had this problem early on) Cooling mods with pinned t-stats, added poppet valves, t-stat removal and relocation to a central t-stat due to soot issues, drill the center mains to drain oil off as engines wouldnt start when cold due to oil thickening, injector and voltages changed 3 times and EMM as there at least 75 software patches just on the 1999-2000 150/175 models. The Etec EMM is not ever close to a ficht and has 25,000 individual maps in it and a sample rate of about 50 times per millicycle.

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

i agree faztbullet. the fichts had a hard time since the technology was new and lesseons had to be learned. but at these days the revisions were made under warranty and with a little luck you have today a decent engine with all the updates included, especially talking the ficht "ram" models with factory pinned heads and many other improvements.

the etec is of course better , i never said anything else. time moves on and electronics become more and more powerful and reliable.

the videos i posted and multitech expierenced such a big pain of should show that a decent improved ficht is pretty close to an etec in running/idling characteristics when it comes to smokefree operation or engine smoothness and miles away from a carbed two stroke , its not a "sucker" by design.

 

[Faztbullet]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

especially talking the ficht "ram" models

Ram was just a name added to the cowl as the name ficht was getting a bad reputation, and pinned heads was in production before the ram decals as ram means nothing sort of like limited edition..

when it comes to smokefree operation or engine smoothness and miles away from a carbed two stroke

and they will as a carb engine idles on all 6 cylinder and a ficht idles on 3 random cylinders so it going to be smother,if it ran on all 6 like a carb idle would not be smooth at all. Problem is BRP is slowly phasing out support the ficht engines so if you dont have a old tech to look at it your screwed.

 

[daselbee]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

and they will as a carb engine idles on all 6 cylinder and a ficht idles on 3 random cylinders so it going to be smother,if it ran on all 6 like a carb idle would not be smooth at all. Problem is BRP is slowly phasing out support the ficht engines so if you dont have a old tech to look at it your screwed.

Yes, phasing out... and what is a great way to phase out old models? Refuse to give out injector parameters, thereby causing the engine repair (if it needs injectors) to be more costly than the engine is worth....there's another "old motor out of circulation". Hey FAZT, a PDF you say?

 

[aerobat]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

Ram was just a name added to the cowl as the name ficht was getting a bad reputation, and pinned heads was in production before the ram decals as ram means nothing sort of like limited edition..

are you sure ? i thought "ram" generally incorporated the pinned heads by factory on every model, where earlier fichts were upgraded with these new heads by warranty only when owners reported problems. so yes -pinned heads before ram but only as an upgrade when the owner had issues and with ram introduction ( 04.2000) pinned heads generally on every engine afaik.

you are correct on problematic support with fichts, here in germany you hardly find a mechanic who has deep knowledge about them - and the ficht surely hates screwing on it without knowledge.

 

[multimech]

Re: EMM over heating on a 200 Evinrude ficht (Same Old Problem)

"and they will as a carb engine idles on all 6 cylinder and a ficht idles on 3 random cylinders so it going to be smother,if it ran on all 6 like a carb idle would not be smooth at all."

Now here is a funny thing Fatzbullet. I work on mostly early 2000 and later models of Ficht 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder engines. I have never noted that they idle on random cylinders. Never got that info at BRP school either. In fact I use the dynamic test, just to verify I can drop a cylinder to see if the injector is actually working. I don't do this normally on an engine that is idling without being in gear because it is harder to tell if there is a drop in RPM. However, every engine I have ever tested in gear (as the one I was working on today, a E150fpxssm) there is a definate drop in that cylinder when I shut it down through the software, unless of course the injector has pooped the bed. I am accustomed to HPDI engines not firing on all cylinders at idle, out of gear. I have never experienced this aspect of the engines. Is there a year time frame where this is true? I am not familiar with the earlier models so much. In fact another test I do at idle is to change the fuel flow through the injector to determine if it has the same characteristics of the other injectors. Never found one that does not fire at idle. Of course for all you wrenches out there, I also do this test at various speeds and with newer models, shut down the idle controller. In fact when I have a difficult to start Ficht it usually is one of the injectors not firing or injecting fuel if it is "hitting". I am interested in this aspect of the Fichts. Can you please tell me more about it? I just had another thought. When I test injectors on an engine on a stand, I always check the "drop" of the injectors at idle, out of gear, just to ensure they are all firing. I have never found one that was not firing along with the others. Maybe this is because I work on 2000 models and up?

In fact I was under the impression, from school, hands on and generally just common sense that they did not foul as much with oil as a two stroke carb model is the fact that the oiling is handled electronically and based on engine demand and other factors. Even the old VRO system couldn't do what the electronic, EMM controlled pumps can do. The Etecs of course give a much wider range of oiling parameters and that is based on demand and type of oil selected. They don't build up the sticky mess that Fichts used to do.