Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

[BugEyes]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

Free from work today and I went hunting for the appropriate 12 point socket. Found it after visiting 3 places. Cost me about $15 (eek!) but it's a Bacho so it should last me a while.<br />It fit perfectly and I got the pistons off.<br />Guess I found the reason for the noise, pistons are severely scratched and someone seem to have tried to fix it with sandpaper .<br />I must have been wrong when I thought that the crankcase never had been open. Pistons are severely scratched but the corresponding marks is not in the cylinders or on the rings, bearings seem fine too. I guess this motor have at some time seized from overheat and that the cyls have been honed a lot to remove the scratches and new rings have been installed. But the pistons themselves have been reused. Thereby causing excessive piston slop while maintaining OK compression.<br />I took some pictures and posted them at...<br /> CLICK FOR PISTON PICS <br /><br />I'd be grateful if the more experienced would have a look at them.

 

[umblecumbuz]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

That's what's so appealing about this forum - a coupla Americans, a Canadian, a Scot from Malta, a Dane - and maybe a few others - helping a Swede (there's gotta be a big joke in there somewhere!).<br /><br />Pity the rest of the world ain't like that!<br /><br />Back to the thread ... I agree exactly with what Dane's diagnosed. Presumably there are no tell-tale bits of metal in the crankcase, else you would have found them? Are reeds complete and undamaged? Does bearing play indicate bearing beginning to disintegrate?<br /><br />Keep posting.<br /><br />Next step - tear down the lower unit and rebuild that too. <br /><br />PS. I melted lead in a saucepan once for casting fish weights. Cost me a whole new stainless copper-bottomed kitchen set. Half the price of a new boat! If you can't take the flak, keep outta the kitchen.<br /><br />Ciao

 

[G DANE]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

Sorry to hear that, Pikefisher, I feared something like that, when you told about the soot in cranckcase. Normally these 25 HP's has 120-125 PSI compression, but down to 100 is sufficient to a good stable run. Besides your gauge cound read a bit low, thats the reason I didnt comment your compression numbers. If you want the best from this motor, you have to get the bores measured, new oversize pistons ordered and cylinders bored and honed for them. Examine all bearings and cranck journals first. If lower cranck main bearing is removed, it will need to be replaced.I think you will get the pistons cheapest by ordering them online from USA.

 

[G DANE]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

Just took a second look at your pistons. They show a lot of wear. It takes manny manny hours before the turning marks are worn off the pistons. The one I had with the rattling sound had one piston with wear like yours, just no scratches. Produced the rattling sound anyway.

 

[BugEyes]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

I will probably get oversized pistons and rebore the block. I found a reasonable price for the pistons and can hopefully get a friend to bore the cylinders for free.<br />The bad side is that it will cost a bit but the good side is that I will get an engine that could serve me for years with only routine maintainance.<br />Gonna be fun rebuilding this thing.

 

[umblecumbuz]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

I see two things, looking at your photo's. <br /><br />Huge amount of wear, which means new pistons of course, but those score marks suggest that something else damaged the piston at one time. <br /><br />Maybe the unit's been badly rebuilt, as you said, but if the cylinders have been honed to remove score marks or deep scratches, then the bores will need attention also.<br /><br />Reminds me of your first post:<br />

3. Is it worth it? That question I have to ask myself of cause.

Life's a bummer sometimes.

 

[BugEyes]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

Reminds me of your first post:<br />

3. Is it worth it? That question I have to ask myself of cause.

Well, I have set my mind to it and can't turn around easily now <br />First I need to check the status of the bores, is there meat enough for an oversize or are they already beyond it. I can inspect the rings with the pistons in the bores and that says something about the piston slap. If the block admits it I will probably go with oversize JE pistons and a rebore. Otherwise I need to check what other options is available, can I find a used powerhead to a reasonable price and will it be any better than this.<br />It's not my style to give up, I'm gonna make an engine out of this and have fun in the process, even if I have to change out every single part. Like I have the same axe like my grandpa, my father changed the head and I have changed the shaft . I'm not entirely surprised by my findings on the pistons, what I thought as soon as I heard it idle.<br />I'm very grateful to all those good people around the world that takes interest in this and help me out. Thank's again for doing that and your support is the key to success in this project.<br />For now I can't do anything for a couple of days. Then when my manual arrives I will tear down the lower unit as well. I want to check everything so that I can make one order and pay only one postage for parts from the US. This old and worn engine is lucky, it's gonna get a second life

 

[G DANE]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

To now I never seen any of these blocks that were beyond oversize possibilities. Look here: http://www.theshadconnection.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?page=329, or here http://www.boatpartstore.com/jandesearch.asp?cat=items&cval=4&hval=16&val=74. Or do a search for Wiseco.

 

[Solittle]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

Pike - Please give us a post from time to time of your progress even if you don't have a question. I, for one, would like to follow your project.

 

[BugEyes]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

Originally posted by SoLittle:<br /> Pike - Please give us a post from time to time of your progress even if you don't have a question. I, for one, would like to follow your project.

I will, might even document the project with pictures and that way make a payback to this community.

 

[umblecumbuz]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

And Pike - I've got one of those axes also! Only mine's a broom.<br /><br />Here's a downloadable manual that's very useful. Not much in the way of illustrations, but a fund of 'hands-on' general experience. It's on the 9.9/15 engines, but a lot of the info is worth having:<br /><br /> http://www.pugetsoundanglers.org/Fishing Info/Johnson 9.9_15.htm <br /><br />Keep posting.<br /><br />Ciao

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

hello<br /> boring that block is not for the average machine shop. the rebuild will hinge on if the port edges are properly prepped. carefully inspect the webs in the exhaust ports for cracks. looking at the wear and scuff marks on that piston I can tell at sometime in that motors life it was very hot. that is why all the oil grooves are worn off the skirts. at somepoint the piston avtually swelled larger than the bore and scuffed them. if the sleeve is cracked the block can be resleeved. here its about 200 dollars a hole. the basicic problem I ever see with amuater rebuilds is lack of attetion to detail and cleanliness.that and improper use of sealants. if I were doing the rebuild I would remove the tranfer port covers and exhaust covers and carefully clean all passages. its also a good time to inspect the exhaust divider plate and cover. if the upper and center mains show no pitting or scuffing odds are they are reusable.always replace the wristpins,circlips and wristpin bearings as well as the lower main. never reuse the lower main. its the only main that has loads in two directions. I use a press and bearing seperator for removal. for installation here is a trick. put on your chef hat and cook it. I heat them to 250* F in a toaster oven and they will slip right on. you may want to pay careful attention to the lettered side and make sure when you slip it on it does not slip back before cooling. for the amuatur rebuilder I will say DO NOT use the loquic primer for your gel seal on the block. if your not really quick torqueing the mains and flange bolts it will set up and act as a shim causing the timer plate not to fit the upper bearing.there were two types of center mains in those blocks. one was a steel cracked race with a wire retainer the other a stamped steel sleeve. if yours has the sleeve replace it. I will also reccomend tou practice making sure the main bearings line up on the block pins. if they dont it will self destruct.<br /> when you get ready to assemble it and have all the new parts including rodbolts let us know.<br /> good luck and keep posting

 

[BugEyes]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

Thank's again,<br /><br />I have now started to make a shooping list of parts needed and come up with the following soo far...<br /><br />For the powerhead...<br />- Lower main bearing<br />- Rod bearing rollers, 2 sets (cheap, will change regardless of need)<br />- Wrist pin bearings, 2 of them (not sure I need them and they're quite expensive, $42)<br />- Complete gasket set for powerhead<br />- 2 piston sets, .020 oversize, comes with rings pins and clips<br />- Rodbolts<br /><br />Lower unit<br />- Seal kit, might as well as it's off the engine anyway.<br /><br />Please help me complete the list, best price soo far is $300 from RickRacers.com<br /><br />And another question...<br />If i rebore for .020 oversize it means that the bore shojuld be 3.020 inches, right?

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

hello<br /> you will need rodbolts, gel seal or equavalent a t-stat and water pump kit, a carb kit, a fuel pump kit or pump. new water deflectors. adhesive M and gasket maker . maybe others can add to the list.<br /> good luck and keep us posted

 

[BugEyes]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

Originally posted by rodbolt:<br /> hello<br /> you will need rodbolts, gel seal or equavalent a t-stat and water pump kit, a carb kit, a fuel pump kit or pump. new water deflectors. adhesive M and gasket maker . maybe others can add to the list.<br /> good luck and keep us posted

Thank's but I.m only shopping for the powerhead rebuild right now. Added the rodbolt to my list thank's to you. Water pump and carb is in excellent condition, clean as a newborn. Fuel pump works well too. Someone did start a rebuild on this motor but didn't follow trough to change out the toasted pistons. They seem to have done the carb as I have seldom seen one as clean inside. And the impeller looks brand new as well.<br />Let me rephrase the question and emphasis that the shopping list is for getting the powerhead back together, regardless of fuel, ignition and other systems.<br /><br />EDIT/ I have now taken everything off of the powerhead and carefully inspected it for cracks, there are none.<br />The powerhead looks surprisingly well considering how the pistons look. I measured the bores at the top and the are exactly 3 inches. By inserting one piston stripped of the rings and wiggle it in the bores I tried to determine if the play varied in different places. Couldn't find any variation.<br />Only minor scratches in the bores and I'm starting to wonder if the need to be rebored or if I could get away with a set of standard size pistons and a hone, what do you think?

 

[BugEyes]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

Short progress update;<br /><br />Took the block to a friend that measured the bores for me. Even though they look fairly well they are out of specs, both tapered and out of round (.2 mm). A .020 oversize should be enough but it needs to be rebored to get it right.<br />I have also disassembled the lower unit and inpected what's in there. No unpleasant surprises in the lower regions thankfully, will just change the seals.<br />What I have not found in this motor is corrosion, nowhere is it to be seen. This makes me think it might be well worth restoring.<br />Next I will look around for the best price/quality job for the rebore and once that is done I will order parts from overseas.<br />It's all in pieces now and packed in about a dozen of plastic bags where closeby components waits together for the reassembly.<br />And my SELOC manual finally arrived yesterday so now I can do my homework properly before starting reassembly.

 

[BugEyes]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

Status report;<br /><br />Have been looking around for a place to get the cyls bored. I have only found one that seemed to know enough about these engines to be trusted. Problem is that the price is a bit steep, about $200 for the job. Then I need about $300 worth of parts so the bill will be at least $500. In addition to that I will need to buy some new tools, but that is fun.<br />I currently keep looking for a cheaper place to get the bore job done while I'm trying to decide if it's worth the money to restore a 24 yo engine.

 

[G DANE]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

100$ pr. hole is a high price - I think you can do better by shopping around. Try asking motorcycle shops where they get their work done - same thing.<br /><br />Here in Denmark price would be around 40 - 50 $ pr. hole.

 

[BugEyes]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

Thank's,<br /><br />I have already put the question up on a Swedish bike forum that I'm a member of, riding is my other hobby. I'll keep shopping around for a while, no hurry as there is a long winter ahead.

 

[Solittle]

Re: Engine rebuild questions, 1980 E25

Question on pistons and reboring - Great thread by the way. Now - -<br /><br />Do the "experienced marine" machine shops that rebore these motors also sell pistons/rings? Do they hone the cylinder walls? <br /><br />If so I would think that it would be best to buy the pistons/rings etc from the shop to make sure that you get the right clearances. This is probably more important for the do it yourselfer who may either not have all the special tools or know how to properly use them. Anythig else that you would have them do or buy from them??