engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

[sam111]

I have been looking at prices or inboard as well as outboard motors. And it seems to be similar tend for the other engines cars , ...etc

What I am curious about is that it looks like you can usually get a new engine for around the same price as having to rebuild an engine plus or minus a few thousand dollars. So why other then learning or recreation would one every want to rebuild an engine over just dropping a new one in ?

Taking into account the work need to put it back together over just installing a new engine with totally new internal components (which will last longer obviously in most cases)

Maybe there is some auto or marine mechanics here that can provide me with a case when you would do rebuilding over the other. Keeping in mind a few extra 1000 dollars safeing up or taking a loan out will give you brand new engine with no headaches for along while. Over rebuilding and having everything installed perfectly but because of some wear on some components only lasts 3-5 years longer.

I would imagine over all other then the lifting part of the engine it works out better for everybody.

 

[jbcurt00]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

Are you asking a bunch of DIY fanatics (esp the fiberglass guys) if they'd rather save a couple thousand & rebuild an engine rather then just buying a new one?

IDK, been to an auto parts store lately? How many new (or reman'd) crate engines do they sell versus how many parts for a partial or complete rebuild they sell? To the general public, I suspect the parts & pieces sell significantly more often, day to day.

Been back to your repair manual thread lately:
[h=3]Re: Boat manufactures and repair manual ?[/h]

 

[sam111]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

IDK, been to an auto parts store lately? How many new (or reman'd) crate engines do they sell versus how many parts for a partial or complete rebuild they sell?

Yes I know that but it stands to reason you could always order a whole engine from the manufacturer itself.

Or maybe I am wrong is it some times that a mechanic cann't get a new engine when a customer wants a new one in there instead of just rebuilding? I.E what happens if I took my boat or car to a mechanic and said I want an a totally new OEM engine put in instead of rebuilding. What would they say?
What I am telling you is looking at the cost of a new engine and the average labor charges over old engine and average labor charges for that. The difference is normally not as significant as paying a little extra to get it new.

Thats all I am saying plus in most cases installing a new engine would be easier then rebuilding. Analogy is that it is easier to run electrical wires when there is no dry wall up.

Are you telling me if one has the extra couple thousand and the mechanic is willing to install/charge a reasonable price you still won't necessarily be able to do it based on not enough extra engines being available?

I find that hard to imagine but correct my logic if I am wrong
Does that also hold for car transmissions ?

 

[chconger]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

Can you give us some context of what you are trying to do? Are you trying to build a boat... Restore one... Buy one? What do you want to do in the boat?

Folks can give a lot better advice with some general idea of your end goal.

Cheers
Chris

 

[zool]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

imo, the problem youre finding in the logic, coupled with the forum youre asking it in is, we dont account for labor, we do it ourselves, sharing info between ourselves, to get the job done right, and more importantly, knowing its done right, without corner cutting.

Just as the professional labor to rebuild the hulls here would render the projects cost prohibited, the material cost alone makes it doable.
Also, the so called pros really dont want to wrench rusted, corroded bolts, on older, unsupported systems....so they jack up the price to make you go away

 

[sam111]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

imo, the problem youre finding in the logic, coupled with the forum youre asking it in is, we dont account for labor, we do it ourselves, sharing info between ourselves, to get the job done right, and more importantly, knowing its done right, without corner cutting.

Well then other then the fun of it or understanding the internals of how to put an engine together ... why would one not just always drop a new one in

Also lets say my condition is I have a 15 year old boat that's hull looks almost next to new but the engine just went i.e the compression is shot. Won't it always be easier as well as brand new if one just puts a brand new engine in. For me it seems a more sure way that it will last longer.

And say if I was a person that knew how to rebuild or install a new engine and didn't mind do either what normally would be the best course of action spend a few extra bucks and have a brand new engine or chance that something from the old engine breaks 5 years or so down the line?

I don't know is rebuilding an engine more common then just dropping an engine in. I would say the former is more of a pain in the *** just by logic.... though what do you think.

And curious to know what normally a mechanic would do if an engine is shot spend his time rebuilding or just drop a new one in ?

I get there maybe times when a cruiseliner engine or a specialized engine is not available then the only course of action is rebuilding.
But other then fun / recreation I would imagine in the industry they would much rather drop an new engine into a system if it is possible then go on and try to rebuild internals of it.

 

[zool]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

If you just lost compression, and the accessories are all functioning, then the math would be in favor of just changing the long or short block.

A rebuilt long block goes for $1295-$1500 around here, and gm crate long block is around $2k-2500....thats for a 5.7

A new crate engine goes from 5k-10k depending on accessories....and a rebuilt complete usually has the original accessories on it, so not much gain in that.

as a side note: most 15 year old hulls that "look like new" are deceiving at best.....just ask the ppl here how thay know...

There are certainly situations where a new engine is mandated, like mine for example, they are obsolete, and im jumping from Volvo red block inlines to GM V's, so there is nothing to salvage, so new complete crates make the most sense.

 

[sam111]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

Ok then I guess what I am getting at is would a mechanic much rather have to install a new engine or rebuild an old one in most cases when it comes to boats and cars.

I would imagine installing a new engine would take a lot less longer to complete then having to rebuild parts of the engine and muck with having to clean as well.

A rebuilt long block goes for $1295-$1500 around here, and gm crate long block is around $2k-2500....thats for a 5.7

A new crate engine goes from 5k-10k depending on accessories....and a rebuilt complete usually has the original accessories on it, so not much gain in that.

But I do see what your saying but even a few extra thousand is not like much when it comes to securing the length of your vehicle brand new as opposed to semi-new. Its just me ... now if the percentage was a significant difference like 50% or more of the total vehicle then I would say hell ya it would be better just to rebuild instead of buying new. Since at this point buying new wouldn't be as good as saving to just buy a completely new boat

 

[sam111]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

For those engine rebuilders/repairs out there can you give me like a difference in time it takes to rebuild an engine to how long it takes to just drop a new one in? Just looking for an average in time difference.

 

[zool]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

You would be surprised at how many shops will just order a new long block, and put ur old accessories on it, and make money on the spread and labor...while not guaranteeing the accesories...with the price of blocks these days, rebuilding internals is mostly done by engine shops, not marinas or repair shops....few will do both.

Also, if you want the new, latest and greatest, then you may need more than just an engine. Again, using mine as an example, the keyhole size for new Volvos is now standardized,where mine stil have the large holes, so the latest tech will not work with my drives or transom, so the shop would tell me i need, at least a new transom, plus an extra 30k for new drives....then theres all the other stuff i wont even go into, like hydraulics and such....

Now if youre talking outboards..I may agree with your logic more...not a big fan of rebuilt powerheads...

 

[Scott Danforth]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

Here is what I know from many of the boat mechanics in the area. install new from spark arrestor to prop, then its a factory warranty. if they rebuild, its their warranty. if an issue comes up, having the factory warranty keeps the warranty cost on the customer (higher cost of a new complete motor) vs the mechanic.

that being stated. I can rebuild a small block chev for about $1500-$2000 and that is stock or mildly built up (vs a stock only new Mercruiser or Volvo Penta_. For a new Volvo Penta motor (complete from spark arrestor to drive coupling, I am looking at $7k starting. for building a serious 383 or 406 torque monster from a seasoned salvage yard motor or my current motor, I am looking at $3000 - $5000 depending on what bling hardware I look at. That leaves me $2k to spend on other things like performance exhaust, etc.

Then again, I also turn my own wrenches and know plenty of machine shops. My labor is free, the beer and parts are not.

to R&R a motor and drive into the same bilge hole, assuming no additional work such as stringers, exhaust changes, etc, you have 4 hours labor minimum no mater if its installing new, rebuilt, or something crusty dredged from a canal.

to rebuild a motor, a good machine shop takes about a week. plus a week to order parts, then 1 day tear down, 1 day hot tank and oven bake, 1 day clean up, one day assembly. so your waiting 3 weeks for a rebuild.

a new motor in stock is pay and go. a new motor that has to be ordered can take up to 8 weeks.


like was stated before, what are you trying to do?

 

[Decker83]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

A good mechanic would always do whats best for his customer.. If a mechanic told me the only way to repair my engine was to buy a new crate engine, I would not do bussiness with that mechanic.. Just because it is a new engine does not mean it will last any longer..

I've had several new trucks that the engine went bad before they had 20000 miles on them..

I've also rebuilt several motors that lasted for 100000 miles..

It all depends on how well the engine was put together and Mainly HOW WELL IT IS TAKEN CARE OF...

Yes there is a few more steps in rebuilding a engine.. But if done right, it is cheaper and will last as long..

I have a old 1969 Skeeter with a 1972 Erude 70 HP. Do you think I would spend 5000.00 plus on new outboard to put on this old boat or have it rebuilt for 1500.00..

You tell me..

 

[jbcurt00]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

There are other reasons to keep the engine you have, rather then buying a new motor.

As I asked in your other thread, and has been asked again in this thread by Chonger: What are you attempting to do? Merely an exercise to determine rebuild VS new replacement pros & cons?

If this was my boat:

And I could afford any engine in the world that I wanted, I would put this on the back:

1957 Johnson Golden Javelin

Because it would 'look' correct to ME, and I would WANT to have a Golden Javelin on my vintage Feathercraft boat. Or perhaps I'd choose a vintage Mercury motor similar to the 1 hanging off the back of the boat to the right of the 1st pix I just posted.

Even if I could afford a brand new, larger displacement (horsepower), factory warranted, tilt & trim equipped Evinrude E-tec (awesome engine, reputation & reliability):

That Golden Javelin might cost me several thousand dollars to get back to nearly new condition, if I do some of the work myself.

Financially, logically, it may make NO SENSE what so ever, to anyone but ME. It's mine & it's vintage, so I get to choose how to rebuild/restore it.

Why do some people buy parts from an auto parts store & an auto recycler (used to be called a junk yard, but as a recycler, I guess they get to charge more for the parts, whatever...). Even if they can afford a brand new factory fender for their damaged 2013 Cadillac, some might choose to buy 1 from a recycler. Why? MONEY? Maybe they WANT to do the work themselves.

That might not make any sense to others who could easily afford to pay a Cadillac dealer to do the work...

For others, although they can 'afford' a 2013 Cadillac, perhaps they can't 'afford' to pay a dealer to do the work.


For the purposes of this exercise, there is NO 1 correct answer. Whether that makes 'sense' or is logical, is somewhat moot.

 

[sam111]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

As I asked in your other thread, and has been asked again in this thread by Chonger: What are you attempting to do? Merely an exercise to determine rebuild VS new replacement pros & cons?

Yes for the most part.

Also I am wondering what if any parts of the internal engine can be replaced with out having to jack it out of the car.
Basically curious about the camshaft , pistons , crankshaft , piston rings , valve train , cylinders .
A blown head gasket would be a relatively easier replacement provided all you had to do is take the engine cover off , scrap the old gasket off , put new one on with some automotive sealer silicon then tighten the cover header bolts to the torque specified.
But can you replace the valve train or camshaft with out jacking the engine I would imagine the crankshaft and pistons require this jack of the engine out.

Or maybe should I say what engine component fixes requires the engine to be jacket out and completely disassembled

 

[jbcurt00]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

Yes for the most part.

Also I am wondering what if any parts of the internal engine can be replaced with out having to jack it out of the car.

But can you replace the valve train or camshaft with out jacking the engine I would imagine the crankshaft and pistons require this jack of the engine out.

Or maybe should I say what engine component fixes requires the engine to be jacket out and completely disassembled

Ummm, it's a boat forum.......

 

[81 Checkmate]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

Sam......just ask your question...are you working on a boat or a car?

As far as motor rebuilding or by new....i chose to rebuild and ill list the reasons.
1. Money,money....and more money.....Money is the root of all evils
2. I have an 81 boat and im not gona sink $3500 in just a motor when i just rebuilt mine for around $800
3. Need more money for other parts to restore the boat itself
4. Sure would love to have spent the money on a new crate engine.......that would be awsome
5. My boat is worth prob around $3500 when completed on a resale value.
6. Drag racers rebuild their motors after every run down the strip.....Becouse they have the money to do so

So see its all about Money.........Now if had a $10,000 to $20,000 boat and it needed a engine id go with a new motor....No brainer!



And ill say it again....It's how much money a person is willing to spend for what they working on!

And yes you need to pull the motor outa the CAR/BOAT to rebuild the motor...................

 

[Bayou Dave]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

I wonder if the OP owns a boat or is even thinking of buying one.

 

[Woodonglass]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

I think this is in the wrong Forum. This IS the Boat Restoration, Building, and Hull Repair Forum NOT the Motor Forum. If the OP has a question on how to restore or build a boat or how to repair a Hull then I for one would be more than happy to help him with that. But all this hypothetical stuff on motors seems to me to be misplaced. JMHO:watermelon:

 

[73Chrysler105]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

WOG your right it belongs in the motors forum. I for one don't think he has his facts, terms or understanding correct. New means all new components never been run just fresh factory assembled these run upwards of $10k for a marine motor. Remanufactured means used components reassembled with new wear parts (bearings, rings, gaskets and such) and new or refurbished components when required and these run $2,500-5k. Rebuilt will run between $500-$1500 depending on the amount of machine shop work and component wear. If it is just a re-ring and new bearings and gaskets with no valve job, no crank turning, no boring just a rehone, no change in cams then it can cost less than $250 in parts and labor would be under $300 for a competent mechanic just on the rebuild not including the removal and installation time. I do all my own labor. I have had others build my motors and they last longer when I build them why because I take the extra care and besides that if they break down then it is my fault no one elses. No one touches my vehicles anymore I don't trust anyone else to touch them for anything. I had an alarm system installed one time they hooked it up to the wrong wire which their own instruction manual said not to hook it up to and it blew out my head light switch. I changed it out and sent them the bill.

I have a 360 for the SIII below right now that is costing me total including the cost of the engine $350 and that includes an aftermarket intake new stainless steel bolts and two new valves. Why because I can get away with only a clean up hone and the bearings are still good. I might change them which would run me a little more but still well under $400. The largest expense was the intake which is brand new and I got a great deal on for $90.

I am building a 440 for the Carlson that is getting new pistons requiring the block to be bored, new rings, intake and gaskets and I doubt I will spend more than $800 in total and that is a motor that will be making 500+ HP for that boat and that is because I spent $300 for the running motor just didn't have the compression I wanted and got this set of KB Forged Pistons for $130 practically new.

 

[sam111]

Re: engine rebuilding vs install new engine?

Ok, I see my error.
Some times it is better to rebuild and sometimes its better to just get a new engine this depends on alot of factors and differs with different vehicles to some extent. Based on if you are willing to do the labor , willing to pay the extra money ...etc and all these factors can change from time to time kind of like shoping for items in a grocery store some times there on sale some times not.

As for what I meant about jacking the engine it was more worded for cars. Though I guess the more correct question would be
having to take out the engine block. I would imagine this would only be need if the pistons , piston rings , or crankshaft has a problem.
Correct me if I am wrong though there could be engines out there that are structure so you cann't fix the valve train , cam shaft , valves , and other components with out removing the engine block. Seems engineers would try to make a tool or design so you can change out all broken components never having to jack the engine only maybe in the cases of the engine block being damaged. ( i.e also being able to work with piston ,piston rings , crankshaft with out having to take out the engine block)

Question 2
This one is sort of random but applies to any engine pretty much. We all know that 4 stroke needs intake , compression , ignition , exhaust. What I am curious about is if one clogged up the tail pipe/muffler on a pieces of equipment or car or motorcycle ,...etc
The items engine would definitely stop based on not getting its exhaust stroke (and probably the exhaust valve would be pressed close by the built up of exhaust gas fumes) . What I am curious is if a person want to pay a prank on one of his friends would the built up exhaust gas fumes cause any harm temporarily or would the pressure build up affect any components bad for this short duration of the prank. Logically I would only think the pressure could cause an issue in a pipe or fitting and newer models probably have a sensor to kill the engine before harm anyway... not sure about older engines though.

Question 3
Is the opposite of exhaust i.e if one plugged up the air intake so that there was no air/fuel ratio just fuel I would assume you could still have a working engine since the fuel is still being compressed , ignited , and then exhausted. Though I am not sure about why the air is important isn't fuel like gas give off enough energy to at least operate the engine ? Also the other way around wouldn't compressed air ignite with out gas fuel I mean there is oxygen in there which very flammable ... so even with the smaller not pure oxygen I would imagine some combustion would occur ?