Erratic timing

[Jayrock]

Re: Erratic timing

Quick question if this engine ran counter rotating as stated what will happen to the impeller which is curved or cupped to turn in one direction? My common sense tells me the rubber blades may be broken or busted the plastic housing?
Hopefully someone can shed some light on this?

Food for thought for sure. The water flow is still very strong. I just put that impeller in last season, so its propbably still pretty flexible. On my work boat, we use a flexible vane pump, a Jabsco, in our bilge system. We REGULARLY take out the impeller and flip it over so the vanes get bent back the other way. It seems to extend the life of the impeller substantialy. I was leary at first, but after years of doing it that way I am a believer . So I think as long as the vanes are flexible, it would be alright. A tired stiff impeller might not take getting turned the opposite way to well.

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Erratic timing

Nymack.... Pertaining to your first line question, I don't fully understand it. However, if a flexible impeller was installed in a water pump housing cup with the blades flexed in the wrong direction, that is no cause for alarm. The impeller blades would contour to the proper position immediately upon having the engine starting.

 

[ONERCBOATER]

Re: Erratic timing

Very interesting idea the Diode that is, it would easily explain the issue and makes sense. Thats why the Iboats forums are the best I have found, people with serious experience willingly sharing it with one and other and those of us who don't have as much. I really find the backgrounds of some of our members interesting.
+1 for the diode

Sean

 

[seahorse5]

Re: Erratic timing

Very interesting idea the Diode that is, it would easily explain the issue and makes sense.

The diode test was for the dual pack ignition systems. Your '96 has the one piece housing that contains 2 packs internally plus the computer logic. If the diode was bad, you have to replace the pack.

Multi-firings in a system such as yours is usually a bad pack. Test the timer base carefully as sometimes a bad timer base can damage a new pack.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Erratic timing

Jay....I hate to beat a dead horse...but...

I worked with a guy who had exactly the same thing happening on his 225 looper. Runs badly, timing was all over the place, when quickstart dropped out, the engine would cough, run backwards for a second, then die.

He finally found that he had the #2 and #4 orange wires crossed at the coils.
Fixed it right up.

So, months later, I was testing powerpacks on my test engine, and I put one on, and immediately had the rough running, cough and run backwards issue. I said...!!!! I have seen that before!!!

Sure enough, #2 and #4 orange wires were swapped at the coils. Those two are the only ones that are long enough to swap without realizing it.....

So, for my peace of mind, check it again.....

 

[Joe Reeves]

Re: Erratic timing

Seahorse5.... An entry just to avoid a lack of communication that might exist with some others.

The diode I spoke of exists within each of the dual powerpacks if one was having that problem with a engine that was equipped with dual powerpacks. In which case, should a diode be faulty, that particular powerpack would require replacing, not both powerpacks.

 

[seahorse5]

Re: Erratic timing

Seahorse5.... An entry just to avoid a lack of communication that might exist with some others.

The diode I spoke of exists within each of the dual powerpacks if one was having that problem with a engine that was equipped with dual powerpacks.

HI Joe,

Haven't conversed with you in a long time, years perhaps.

You are correct about the diode used on older engines that use 2 powerpacks.

The 1996 motor in question has a single housing that contains 2 packs and logic chips for QuickStart and SLOW, one internal pack for each bank, so if there is an interaction problem causing erratic sparks, the whole assembly has to be replaced which is a lot more expensive than the older motors with individual packs.

 

[Jayrock]

Re: Erratic timing

Jay....I hate to beat a dead horse...but...

I worked with a guy who had exactly the same thing happening on his 225 looper. Runs badly, timing was all over the place, when quickstart dropped out, the engine would cough, run backwards for a second, then die.

He finally found that he had the #2 and #4 orange wires crossed at the coils.
Fixed it right up.

So, months later, I was testing powerpacks on my test engine, and I put one on, and immediately had the rough running, cough and run backwards issue. I said...!!!! I have seen that before!!!

Sure enough, #2 and #4 orange wires were swapped at the coils. Those two are the only ones that are long enough to swap without realizing it.....

So, for my peace of mind, check it again.....

So I read this, bit my tongue and went out and looked at the motor. I pulled both off and whadayaknow! They were swapped! F****in Thing! I looked at that before, but just a glance. I fired up the motor, (which my neighbors absolutely love) and it ran like it should. I jumped up checked the timing, a perfect spark hitting at 6deg ATDC! It smoothly advances as throttle is moved forward. Its funny how a person can be a mechanic in general, and still not have the career experience to look for something like that. Daselbee you are the man, Thank you. If you are ever in San Diego The beer and the fishing is on me!

 

[daselbee]

Re: Erratic timing

Great Jay!!! Fixed!! I almost did not post on this thread for one reason....nowhere on here do you say you took the PP off. So I am thinking...he didn't disturb the PP, so why would the wires be crossed....

But it sounded so very familiar....

Anyway, I am glad it is fixed.

 

[seahorse5]

Re: Erratic timing

So I read this, bit my tongue and went out and looked at the motor. I pulled both off and whadayaknow! They were swapped! F****in Thing! I looked at that before, but just a glance.

Congratulations !!!

That's what old timers like Reeves and myself learned the hard way many years ago, always do a visual inspection as the first item when troubleshooting. Of course, that's also why it's hard to troubleshoot vague engine problems with a monitor and a keyboard.

 

[jbjennings]

Re: Erratic timing

Just wanted to say I enjoyed reading this thread. This forum has got to be one of the best-kept secrets in boating. It's hard to believe that folks so knowledgeable as the ones we have here are so willing to give away their hard-earned wisdom .
I love the "free" fixes that you don't have to buy parts for, especially when they're electrical!
I always read Joe Reeves' posts because he is not only an expert, but can get down on the common person's level and explain things where I know what he's talking about. I'll have to start following some of you other guy's posts as well.
Joe's Rectifier testing procedure helped me identify my bad rectifier just a few days ago via the search tab. Thanks JOE!
JBJ

 

[ONERCBOATER]

Re: Erratic timing

this forum IS the best thing in the world for one who wishes to work on their own outboards.... or just about anything else boating related....huge pool of info.... and best of all, people willing to repeat the post when they are rather certain they are right.... like this swapped wires scenario.... absolutely great, and the best part is it was both a simple mistake and a simple fix... no real cost involved, and something that I have now filed away in the back of my mind for future issue when i make that mistake

Sean

 

[Jayrock]

Re: Erratic timing

I never removed the powerpack. I did remove all the coils and clean the ground connections a while back. That is where I must have switched the wires. The Black covering on the wire goes almost to the end, so you have to twist the wire around to see the colors. I just got back from the bay setting the idle speed/mixture. This motor is soooo quiet when it idles, right at 750. There was another guy there with an Evinrude like mine, a 225. He couldnt believe I could get my motor to Ide so well. I am helping him rebuild his carbs this weekend. Pay it forward right? Thanks guys... Jason

 

[daselbee]

Re: Erratic timing

Ok Jay...here is another tip for you.
When you pull the black carb bodies off, spend a large amount of time making sure the throttle butterflies are absolutely closed on all six when the throttle is at it's idle stop position, and that they all operate in absolute unison when opening the throttle.
Pay particular attention to #5 and #6 butterflies, as those are separate from the uppers (1,3) and (2,4), and are independently adjustable.

I mean absolutely closed!!! Tap on the butterflies with your fingertip. You will hear a different sound if one is slightly open.
Adjust as required for absolute unison in the butterfly operation.

You would be shocked at how just one open butterfly will mess up the idle. I usually take about 45 mins or an hour to make sure they are perfect.

I have found that I have to adjust the idle screws out to about 7 turns instead of the recommended 5 turns. I am thinking it is because we now have oxygenated fuel, so we now need a richer mix. Ethanol....

Good luck.

 

[jeffersondodson561]

Re: Erratic timing

Yes Visual inspection and proper communication are a must, their are a lot of "Vinnys" out their. One thing I would urge cutomers to do is to give a written explaination to the dealership to give to the mechanic of choice.

 

[Jayrock]

Re: Erratic timing

Huh? Anyways, Daselbee, Just got done with dudes carb rebuild. I pulled everything off. carbs, throttle bodies, and reeds. He had 3 recirculation check valves that were stuck open. I gave him some used ones that I had. Cleaned the screens and they are working now. The small hole in the throttle bodies were all but plugged up. I cleaned those out with some copper wire. Installed them. Did a lync N Sync while the carbs were off. Paid close attention to the butterflies. Took some tinkering. Every time you tighten the screw, it wants to creep open a hair. Its tricky for sure. Rebuilt the carbs next. JEEESSSUS! I am amazed the motor even ran with all the gunk in the float bowls! The float needle on 2 carbs were jammed open by bits of rubber. Put those back together. Then ran to the parts store and got all new fuel line, and gave him a glass prefilter. Took the boat down to the bay, and Voila! A Few adjustments, timing check, and it purrs like a Tiger. He said the throttle response was noticeably crisp, and smoother than it ever has been. Dude asks me "What do I owe Ya?" I told him whatever he thought was appropriate. The fellow wrote me a check for 300.00! HOLY COW!! I would have done it for free! That was my plan until he asked me =) Everything I learned, I got from this site. You guys are the best, Thanks.

 

[daselbee]

Re: Erratic timing

Did a lync N Sync while the carbs were off. Paid close attention to the butterflies. Took some tinkering. Every time you tighten the screw, it wants to creep open a hair. Its tricky for sure. Rebuilt the carbs next. JEEESSSUS! I am amazed the motor even ran with all the gunk in the float bowls! .

Now that's what I am talking about!!! Great job on catching the recirc valves....

I don't want to keep this thread alive indefinitely, but I do want to know what you set the idle mixture screws to. Did you have to open them way out?

 

[Jayrock]

Re: Erratic timing

Now that's what I am talking about!!! Great job on catching the recirc valves....

I don't want to keep this thread alive indefinitely, but I do want to know what you set the idle mixture screws to. Did you have to open them way out?

I started at 7 turns. Motor was Idling but a little shaky and rough. I did a half turn out at first. Idle condititon got worse. Put them back to 7. I then turned them like a 1/2 turn in, In tiny increments until it smoothed out. I painted one flat of my allen wrench white to act as a visual aid, it helps. Seemed like #5 wanted more fuel than the others, so I gave it just a touch more. PM me if you want to respond, I dont want this thread to stray off topic too much. Jason CLOSED =)