ervinrude fast twin 18????????

[ukkev]

Hi all, new member here so may take a small while to find my way around the site ok here's my problem, me and my dad recently bought a 15ft boat and 2 outboards, one being a Johnson sea horse 10 and the other a Evinrude fast twin 10, and this is where the problem starts. does this engine even exist? Ive looked everywhere on the Internet and cant find any mention of it, Ive seen fast twin 15s and 18s mentioned in places and Ive even looked in the outboard directory on here and cant find any mention of a 10. looking at the design of it i would say it was a late 50s to early 60s model?
now the other problem with it.... before we bought it the motor hadn't been run for a fairly long time but the chap we got it from told us it had been rebuilt and set up by a local outboard garage around a year or so ago, so we was confident it would be a good runner, how very wrong we were! after a week of taking the carb to bits, checking plugs and points and a lot of head scratching its still not running right and were fast running out of ideas!
here are the symptoms...

loads of thick white/grey smoke

black oil pools in test tank water after running

really strong exhaust fumes, enough to take your breath and make your eyes sting

going through a gallon of fuel in 30min on tick over and low revs

wont start with out easy start spray


what we've tried.....

new fuel with new oil

replaced rubber seals around the adjustment needles (ran better after)

adjusted both mixture needles as far in as it will run smoothly with

checked float chamber float is floating

checked fuel needle valve is shutting off

checked fuel pump isn't leaking fuel into the engine block



the only thing we can think of now is that the carb has had an over sized jet put in it or the other thing Ive noticed today is there is a screw in the very bottom of the float bowl that could possibly be another adjustment needle (under the main lower mixture needle and to the side).... but its jus a screw we thaught was a drain hole.

after looking at the Johnson (not tried to start that yet )we have noticed although it has the same carb body the main jet and air intake are smaller than the one fitted to the evinrude.

PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

many thanks for reading, regards kev

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

Kev, welcome to iboats. we can sort it out. we need the model #s off both motors to know exactly what you have. the # should be on a 1 inch x2 inch plate, on the front of the mounting bracket. sort of hard to see. then we can get you going.

while you are waiting, read awakening a sleeping outboard, outboard won't start, and Joe Reeves carb settings, all are here http://forums.iboats.com/forumdisplay.php?f=31


also have you check compression, and spark on both motors. compression use a screw in tester, and pull rope 5 times briskly. give us results.

 

[wbeaton]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

Like TD says, we need the model number before we can say much of anything. A discription of the problem would also be nice not just what you've done. Sounds like you'd benefit from a service manual. The factory manual is best.

The coils on the Johnson/Evinrudes from the 1950's into the 1970's were notoriously bad. if they are cracked discoloured or sweaty looking they are bad. Even if they appear to spark well. As TD says, check compression. Too low and it will run rough or not at all. Any carb that has been rejetted is a red flag to me. 1 gallon per 1/2 hour is high at idle, but about right at WOT.

The name Fastwin was used for many years on the 15-18 hp models. The name Sportwin was used on the 9.5-10 hp. Both names were also used on other motors prior to these, but they are older models from the 1940's early 50's and can't be confused with the later motors.

The SuperFastwin is a 15 hp 1953-56
The Fastwin is an 18 hp 1957-73
The Sportwin is a 10 hp 1956-63
The Sportwin is a 9.5 hp 1964-73

The oil on the water is normal and so is the smoke.

Post back with a model number and compression results. Set the carb as per Joe Reeves instructions.

 

[steelespike]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

Are you sure about fuel pump not leaking into crankcase;one plug fouling?
Otherwise something is up with the carb.Some sort of defect,missing part,
float adjusted wrong(fuel level too high).Can you shut the motor down by closing the high speed needle?Is the choke opening all the way and staying open?If you squeeze the primer bulb with the motor off does carb flood easily?

 

[ukkev]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

Thanks for your replies chaps, and a warm welcome from td, much appreciated!

An update on today's antics. Before we got into another days investigating i wanted to be sure and made one last check that it says fast twin ten on the Evinrude's engine cover.... :redface: and nearly died with embarrassment, its an 18!
all i can say is it was my dads fault for not wearing his glasses so that's one mystery solved!
Still surely that wouldn't account for the excessive fuel consumption and plumes of white smoke even on tick over, plus the black oil slick after such a short running time? Even though she does does run fairly smoothly once started and warmed up. The only way so far that we have checked the fuel pump isn't leaking into the crankcase is to remove the pump from the body of the motor and pump the primer bulb, as far as i could see it was dry as a bone behind the diaphragm and holding pressure well, as for the carb were not completely sure on how both adjustments work, but we've gone for the logical route and screwed them both in as far as they will go without the engine sneezing and wanting to stall, probably not the best way to do it in any case? As for the float level the only test we have done is to blow down the fuel inlet and turn the carb upside down to see if the shut off valve is working, and it appears to be?? Chokes opening, staying open ok. spark is good on both cylinders though the plugs are black. and as for the compression we dont know but its not an easy job to spin her over so we thought all was well there... dont have any way of testing because a compression tester is one thing i dont have (as well as any clue what where doing) so sadly Ive no way of posting test results back here

Ill read the link td gave me and see if that can give me some more idea's as to what could be wrong!

Today we decided to have a break from the fast twin and try to get the Johnson going and i can report after a little fiddling around she fired up quite easily and ran sweetly after adjusting the mixture screws... The top one goes intill it cant go any further and that seems to be the best setting for it
Until it came to an abrupt halt after 20min or so running, after a quick check we discovered one of the cylinders had no spark, both plugs are working so it looks like wbeaton may have predicted the future on that one, something to do with the points or coil possibly... But that will be a job for tomorrow though because the light was going by that point!

Will have a look for the id plates and post both model numbers back here asap tomorrow, motors at my dads, Internet at home? but any advice on hot to adjust the carbs in the mean time would be brill.

Just another quick question... would cold weather make the engines smoke more than normal, 2/3 degrees air temp

thanks again, kev

 

[ezeke]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

Re: Smoking on the 18 hp.

Be sure that the thermostat is functional. It is 143? F.
[143 Fahrenheit = 61.67 Celsius]

What Gasoline:Oil mixture are you using on the Fastwin 18? If the motor is 1964 or newer, you would want 50:1. Be sure to use TC-W3 oil.

The spark plugs should be J4C at .030.

De-carbon the engine - may also help with the smoke.

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

i assume you are running them in a tank or barrel, they smoke more in that situation, as the motor is not moving, and disapating the smoke.

(Carburetor Adjustments - Two Adjustable N/Vs)
(J. Reeves)

Initial settings are: Bottom high speed = seat gently, then open 1 turn out. Top slow speed = seat gently, then open 1-1/2 turns.

Setting the high and low needle valves properly:

NOTE: For engines that DO NOT have a shift selection, obviously there is no NEUTRAL position. Simply lower the rpms to the lowest setting to obtain the low speed needle va /lve adjustment.

(High Speed) Start engine (it will run pretty rough), shift into forward gear, take up to full throttle. In segments of 1/8 turn, wating for the engine to respond between turns, start turning in the bottom high speed needle valve. You'll reach a point whereas the engine will either start to die out or spit back (sounds like a mild backfire). At that point, back out the needle valve 1/4 turn. Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest setting.

(Low Speed) Slow the engine down to where it just stays running. Shift into neutral. Again in segments of 1/8 turns, start to turn the top needle valve in. Wait a few seconds for the engine to respond. As you turn the valve in, the rpms will increase. Lower the rpms again to where the engine will just stay running. Eventually you'll hit the point where the engine wants to die out or it will spit back. Again, at that point, back out the valve 1/4 turn. Within that 1/4 turn, you'll find the smoothest slow speed setting.

When you have finished the above adjustments, you will have no reason to move them again unless the carburetor fouls/gums up from sitting, in which case you would be required to remove, clean, and rebuild the carburetor anyway.

the motors probably have never been decarboned. (decarb). it is like a laxative for the motor.

Decarb, take a can of seafoam put 3/4 of it in the gas tank, with only 1 gallon of premixed gas. put the rest in a spray bottle. start the engine, and let it come up to temperature. then remove plugs, and them some real good shot of seafoam into the cylinders, replace plugs, let sit 15 minutes. restart, and spray the rest of the seafoam into the carbs, so the the motor almost stalls, wait and repeat until the seafoam is gone.then take for a wide open spin. then put in new plugs, ad premixed gas to the tank, and take it for a wide open throttle spin. it is going to smoke like a house on fire, during this process.

Seafoam is a US product, possibly available in UK. clean the plugs, or replace.

i also edited your title, to reflect it is an 18 fast twin.

 

[F_R]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

Agreed, put it on a boat. They all smoke like crazy when running in a barrel. And they all produce a thick oil slick on the barrel water. Besides, it is nearly impossible to adjust the mixtures in a small container. You will find it is much cleaner running where it was designed to run---on a boat in the lake.

 

[steelespike]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

If you can screw the mix screws in all the way without it stalling something is wrong.Ive heard of a jet cross threaded or loose, float too high,gas in float
(brass float).

 

[coolguy147]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 18????????

hey hey hey dont put anymore money into the motor yet

hows it pumping water? recommend a impeller change.

u see ur gear lube? two screws at bottom on gear case. one is drain and vent to refill use 85-95 weight gear lube. what color is the gear lube?

check compression

what does ur float look like need to place with modern one

suggest a rebuild and replacing coils points condensors with a carb and fuel pump rebuild kit if u have a pressure tank should be fine unless excessive rust then needing to replace all fuel lines and air lines.


make sure if ur shifting gears u do it quick and when the motor is at idle many people tear up everything down there form mistakes thats can easily be fixed

 

[wbeaton]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

Re: ervinrude fast twin 10????????

If you can screw the mix screws in all the way without it stalling something is wrong.Ive heard of a jet cross threaded or loose, float too high,gas in float
(brass float).

Sometimes the packing gets over-tightened into the threads of the jets and stops the needle before its seat. Clean out all the old packing when cleaning the carb and add new packing washers.

The starting point for the jets should be 1.5 turns out from gently seated on the low speed jet (top needle) and 1 turn on the high (bottom needle). Please read J. Reeves carb procedure outlined in the FAQ's. As mentioned it needs to run on a boat to set the carb properly. You can't do it in a barrel. However, its probably running rich and thats why it won't stop when you screw in the low speed jet in and why you are using so much fuel. The float should be level with the carb body when turned upside down. Set the float too high and it'll flood the carb.

Manuals are available here at iboats, on the web, at your local book store or even at some libraries. Its a worth while investment if you plan on doing your own maintenance. We all have them.

Also, please post the model numbers for both motors. It may help us give you better info.

 

[ukkev]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 18????????

Once again thanks for all your replies, gents

Ok first off Ive found the model number on the Johnson its an OD 23.
I also found the ID plate on the Evinrude but could only find a serial number on there 15032 51321.

Apart from that we really didn't get much done today, hunting down a flywheel pulley mostly, we took the flywheel off the Johnson and it does look like wbeaton was right saying in an earlier post to watch out for the coils on these engines, one of them crumble in my hand when lifting away from its home, they other one looks like its been replaced fairly recently. All i need to do now is find a new one... we tried our local outboard garage but he was still closed after the new year. So until then we cant run that engine again.

While I'm on the subject of parts, would anyone know of anyone who might have the pull start assembly and mechanism for the Johnson (seahorse10) would be willing to pay the postage to the UK and a fair price for it, where using a piece of cord at the mo.... fine in the yard, not so good in the middle of a lake

Another thing we discovered today after reading ezeke's post is there doesn't seem to be a thermostat in either engine, would i be correct in thinking it should be behind the small inspection cover on the top side of the cylinder, has 3 screws holding it i place? the cylinder head doesn't seem to get very warm at all. Could that be the reason the Evinrude smokes so much.... But then Johnson smokes much less and also doesn't have one!

Some quick answers on other points made....

Fuel is 50:1 TCW3 oil

Float is an old cork one but appears to float well

Evinrude will stop if either adjustment is turned too far in

Ive never seen sea foam in this country but we do have something similar its an engine flush, its just to remove carbon build up, right

Can anyone tell me what WOT stands for, Ive come across it when Ive been reading other posts on here before

Tomorrow we should be having a go at putting into practice some of the suggestions made for the Evinrude, hopefully we can get to the bottom of whats going on or at least discount some more possible problems!

best regards kev

 

[ezeke]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 18????????

The 10HP Johnson is probably a QD-23, a 1962 model.

15032 is the model number for a 1960 18HP Evinrude.

My earlier comments were on the possibility that you had a 1964 or 1965 18HP, both of which used 50:1 and had thermostats; earlier models had no thermostats and used more oil, depending on the age. http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/About.Us/FAQ/Oil.Fuel.htm

 

[tashasdaddy]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 18????????

"The 10HP Johnson is probably a QD-23, a 1962 model.

15032 is the model number for a 1960 18HP Evinrude."

both these motor fuel/oil ratio is 24/1 not 50/1.
WOT wide open throttle.

yes, seafoam is for carbon removal.

not having the thermostat, could be the reason the evinrude has so much carbon build up. the johnson, may not have been run as much as the evinrude.

 

[K.B]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 18????????

WOT=Wide Open Throttle
WFO=Wide F------ Open

Same thing

 

[ukkev]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 18????????

ok finaly got my hands on a compression tester

here goes..

Evinrude top cylinder 90psi/ just over 6 bar
bottom cylinder 80psi/ 5.4 bar


Johnson top cylinder 72psi/ 5 bar
bottom cylinder 67psi/ 4.7 bar

bearing in mind with the johnson we are spinning it over with a peice of rope and have to re-load between pulls, not sure if that makes a difference to the results?


any feedback if thats good or bad, we havnt a clue!

best regards kev

 

[steelespike]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 18????????

100psi is considered ideal minimum.They will run on less.Cylinders should be within 10% of one another.Are close enough.A good decarb should help compression.

 

[samo_ott]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 18????????

That's ok'ish for the Evinrude but a tad low for the Johnson. BTW, I love the look of the '62 Johnson 18's and under. Are far as fibreglass cowlings go it's my favorite year.

 

[BSDenning]

Re: ervinrude fast twin 18????????

You may be able to find a recoil starter on www.ebay.com