Eska 5hp ignition

[jake505]

Does any one know what the gap should be on the points for an older 5hp eska I think its a mid 80's not exactly sure though, model: 14208b. Its got one of those wonderful tecumseh's in it and I just cant get any spark. I just got a new point and condenser set and new plug but cant seem to get a good spark out of it I know the coil's working a little b/c I shocked myself by accident earlier while trying to see if it had spark. it shocked pretty good but not enough to throw an arc accross the plug gap.

 

[steelespike]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

Type 642-01 through 642-07B,642-08A through 642-10,643-01 through 643-05A,643-06 through 643-09 and 643-15 point gap is .018. all others are .020.
Would be very good to get a service manual.There are aftermarket manuals covering many brands below 30 hp.Possibly right here at iboats.
Your local library may have them as well.

 

[chuckm51]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

Hey Steelspike,

I, too, have an 84-85 eska 5hp, model 14208B. I got it for free; the guy who gave it to me said it worked great 10 yrs ago when he last used it!
It's not frozen up, and seems to have compression.
I think he was dreaming, because when I dismatled the carb to install a complete rebuild kit, I discovered the pump element was missing. The float bowl stayed empty but gas leaked out the carb intake.
Now I seem to have no spark. Your prior post here confirmed the existance of a coil and points.
I assume they are under the flywheel?
I'm considering getting a manual for it, but I've read a few horror stories about Eskas. Loud, rough vibration, finicky,and one guy put $300 in parts in his and still wouldn't start. So I am reluctant to dump too much money in this little project. I do have a new impeller, but I'm waiting to see if it will at least start for a few seconds before I tackle that task.
I noticed you didn't mention the spark plug wire to the guy who asked about his 5hp model. Is this another failure item to consider?

Thanks!
Chuck in Austin, Tx

 

[Tom @ Buzzard Bluff]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

Both of you need to double check your model #. If the # is indeed 14208b then it was from '85-'86 and Eska shut the door at the end of the '86 production year so you have very LATE model motors. The model # doesn't even appear on the chart. <http://home.earthlink.net/~brixent/eskaid.htm>

<I've read a few horror stories about Eskas. Loud, rough vibration, finicky,and one guy put $300 in parts in his and still wouldn't start. So I am reluctant to dump too much money in this little project. I do have a new impeller, but I'm waiting to see if it will at least start for a few seconds before I tackle that task.>

The air-cooled motors are louder than a water-cooled motor with the sound deadening advantage of full water jacketing. To someone used to small water-cooled twins only they must seem terrible but it doesn't take long to get used to nor do you need earplugs.

All big singles vibrate whether they are cooled by water or air. It's just a fact of life. Once again if your previous experience has been limited to small twins then you may think a big single is about to self-destruct----but it's just obeying the laws of physics.

I've revived many of the air-cooled motors. Virtually always they are less expensive to resuscitate than any of the major brands. Many of the parts are available at local small engine shops----and you need few of them. The vast majority of needed attention is basic cleaning and adjustment. And logic.

Some people just throw $ at a problem when what is needed is a bit of thought.

For coil testing see: <http://www.pochefamily.org/outboard/> as well as
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT8rk5QWgS0>

For general practice see: <http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=158086>

 

[mrcrabs]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

I'm considering getting a manual for it, but I've read a few horror stories about Eskas. Loud, rough vibration, finicky

There's nothing "finicky" about the tecumseh 2 cycle, they either run or they don't, if they don't theres always a good reason just like any other 2 cycle,
generaly it's a lack of knowlage, Yep, "Loud, rough vibration" that part you got right.... if you have a twist grip version of the Eska use a heavy leather glove to protect you hand

 

[Tommy Two Stroke]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

I don't even think they're that loud....they're no louder than any Johnson/Evinrudes I've had.

 

[Tommy Two Stroke]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

Also, I'm not sure that I agree that water cooled engines are quieter due to a water jacket. Water is nearly incompressible, unlike air, so the likelihood of water absorbing any engine noise is extremely nil. I've had Eskas (air cooled) and Johnnyrudes (water cooled) on the same engine stand running next to one another, and the sound intensity is nearly identical.

 

[chuckm51]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

Hey Tommy and Steel and Mr Crabs (I couldn't call you crabby)
IT RUNS! IT'S ALIVE!
New complete carb kit (getting the float needle seat out was the hardest part.) New points, condenser, and plug so far. A local small engine parts place had the points and condenser at *less than half* what the online places wanted, plus shipping.
I think the new plug is wrong ("OH, it will work fine"), and I can't locally find a copper core spark plug wire, and it barely idles rough so far, but it runs!
Also, no water stream from either the 2 holes in the shank. Time to put in the new impeller.
Will anyone tell me where to start dismantling? I see 4 bolts holding the lower housing on, is that where to start? I have tuning instructions, thanks to Doug, and now it's the impeller and plug wire and tune up and syncronizing the advance and throttle. And I've cut the starter rope several times, so a new one of those, too, I think.
Thanks for all the help and insight. Like many here, I signed in to get answers to specific questions. I am not a professional mechanic, though I keep my '80 Chevy
C10 pickup running ok, and my years in college, keeping a '63 Triumph TR4 running, including points and condensers and carb kits, makes things a little more familiar.
So, thanks again.
Chuck in Austin

 

[Tom @ Buzzard Bluff]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

<I'm not sure that I agree that water cooled engines are quieter due to a water jacket. Water is nearly incompressible, unlike air, so the likelihood of water absorbing any engine noise is extremely nil.>

Air-cooled motors have a plethora of fins to increase surface area in order to better dissipate heat energy. Sound too is a form of energy. Water-cooled engines by contrast have two layers of metal (cylinder liner and water jacket) separated by water filled passages to dampen transfer of sound to the atmosphere.

<I've had Eskas (air cooled) and Johnnyrudes (water cooled) on the same engine stand running next to one another, and the sound intensity is nearly identical.>

And two days ago I removed the 7 horse Eska from the testank outside the shop door and dropped in a 3 horse Evinrude twin in it's place. When I had the Eska idling in the tank I had NO trouble hearing it running when I stepped around the corner to the old 'beerbox' refrigerator under the barn shed. Conversely when I do the same thing with the Lightwin idling in the tank I can't hear it at all.
Certainly not the equivalent of a DB meter but proof enough for home mechanics that one is louder than the other! Tom

 

[chuckm51]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

Hey Tom,

I'm creepting toward getting the old girl in running condition.
But while it starts and runs ok, I'm not getting any high speed operation. The throttle twist grip seems to have no effect between low speed and high speed.
There is only one carb adjusting screw, mounted on the side of the carb. There is no main mixture screw under the float bowl as shown on my tecumseh old motor manual.
I did put the pump element in a 45 degree position, but I'm unsure if it is leaning the correct way as shown in the manual. Could this be starving the motor for fuel?
I tried closing the adjustin screw all the way, and reopening it 1 full turn, but it doesn't help.Any thoughts?
I did replace the impeller, and made a new cork gasket for the lower unit cover plate. Put in new gear oil and no leaks. Also have spitting out the **** holes now so the impeller seems good. The old one had no fins left.
Thanks!
Chuck in Austin

 

[Tommy Two Stroke]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

<I'm not sure that I agree that water cooled engines are quieter due to a water jacket. Water is nearly incompressible, unlike air, so the likelihood of water absorbing any engine noise is extremely nil.>

Air-cooled motors have a plethora of fins to increase surface area in order to better dissipate heat energy. Sound too is a form of energy. Water-cooled engines by contrast have two layers of metal (cylinder liner and water jacket) separated by water filled passages to dampen transfer of sound to the atmosphere.

<I've had Eskas (air cooled) and Johnnyrudes (water cooled) on the same engine stand running next to one another, and the sound intensity is nearly identical.>

And two days ago I removed the 7 horse Eska from the testank outside the shop door and dropped in a 3 horse Evinrude twin in it's place. When I had the Eska idling in the tank I had NO trouble hearing it running when I stepped around the corner to the old 'beerbox' refrigerator under the barn shed. Conversely when I do the same thing with the Lightwin idling in the tank I can't hear it at all.
Certainly not the equivalent of a DB meter but proof enough for home mechanics that one is louder than the other! Tom

I'm still not convinced that's true, because water does very little to dampen sound due to it's near total incompressibility. Also, it would depend on how flexible an air cooled engine's cooling fins are under the vibration loading as to whether they would cause sound amplification. Most Eska fins I've seen are robust, so I doubt they vibrate much with engine vibration - otherwise metal fatigue would cause them to break off. The primary source of sound on any engine is its exhaust - not the way the engine block is constructed. Exhausting underwater generally results in sound levels being similar. I did a lot of work with sound propagation in engineering school, so that's why I'm particularly interested in this subject, and why I don't think there's that much difference in sound between water cooled and air cooled engines.

 

[mrcrabs]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

The throttle twist grip seems to have no effect between low speed and high speed

Is your throttle pin making contact with the timing advance cam through out the range of motion of the twist grip? if not you may have to set the timing and carb sync up correctly.

 

[chuckm51]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

Mr. Crab,
That is a very good question. My motor has the (2) fuel inlet fittings on the carburator plate, so checking the throttle pickup requires using a dial indicator to find .005 atdc and .090-.110 btdc in order to set the throttle pickup correctly, according to my tecumseh old motor manual. There are 2 hash marks slightly to the left of the tdc mark on the crankshaft, which I think may indicate the .090-.110 btdc position, but I am not sure. I don't own a dial indicator (yet) but harbor freight has one for $13, plus $13 for the magnetic bracket for it. I can scoot over to it and buy them, but I am getting deeper and deeper into this project, and hate to spend the $ unnecessarily.
Is there a shade-tree alternative for sensing the piston positions other than a dial indicator? I also do not have the special Tecumseh tool part #670236 for showing the start and run positions. My manual has an actual size drawing of it. Can I cut it out of the page, glue it to a piece of cardboard and use it instead?
Sorry for being so long-winded. I'm gonna pull the flywheel again and see what is happening with the throttle pickup.
In all honesty, I am starting way down on the learning curve; all these terms and part names are new to me so far. But I'm learning.
I have an old 5hp Sea King as my next project. I actually had it running 2 yrs ago, but it never seemed to run at full power and I got disgusted with it. It has a real transmission and the parts for a steering wheel so I am hoping to make it the motor of preference for my '50 aluminum boat. I am wondering if it too has the throttle pickup system too.
Thanks for your advice!

Chuck in Austin, where it's still too hot, but there's activity in the gulf...maybe some rain on the way!

 

[mrcrabs]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

Tecumseh tool part #670236 for showing the start and run positions. My manual has an actual size drawing of it. Can I cut it out of the page, glue it to a piece of cardboard and use it instead?

If the scan was the original size, but who knows, has to be close though.

And thats a good question to, I was hoping you would try it, I think with the tool you wouldn't need the dial indicator...I maybe wrong??? but the tool uses the keyway on the crank for position, heres a link to the tool...there cheap enough.

http://www.m-and-d.com/TC-670238A.html

http://www.lawnmowerpros.com/detail.asp?id=670238A

 

[Tom @ Buzzard Bluff]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

<I'm not getting any high speed operation. The throttle twist grip seems to have no effect between low speed and high speed.>

Time to break out the shop manual and check synchronization between ignition advance and throttle. ('Link & Sync')

<There is only one carb adjusting screw, mounted on the side of the carb. There is no main mixture screw under the float bowl as shown on my tecumseh old motor manual.>

In which case you have a fixed main jet. It could be partially occluded by deposits or corrosion. Or someone could hive installed the wrong size. Remove it and clean it well enough to see if it is stamped with the size and that it matches the size specified in the shop manual for your altitude. If you have the right jet then push a piece of old braided fishing line or thread through the hole, soak line or thread with acetone or lacquer thinner and polish the hole to clean it. Whatever you do don't poke wire or metal objects through it

<I did put the pump element in a 45 degree position, but I'm unsure if it is leaning the correct way as shown in the manual. Could this be starving the motor for fuel?>

The top of the pump element should be inclined toward the carb throat. And yes it could.

<I tried closing the adjustin screw all the way, and reopening it 1 full turn, but it doesn't help.Any thoughts?>

Insufficient fuel delivery or stopped up. Or any # of other things.

<I did replace the impeller, and made a new cork gasket for the lower unit cover plate. Put in new gear oil and no leaks. Also have spitting out the **** holes now so the impeller seems good.>

Feel of the water exiting the tell-tales. It shouldn't be very hot at all---if it is the pump isn't moving enough water or it's losing pressure to bad seals or
the water tube is holed from rubbing against the driveshaft. In the latter case you may not be able to detect any extra heat in the water at all if the hole is so big that there's nothing left to reach the lower bearing/seal area.

<The old one had no fins left.>

Not good! They went somewhere---the question is are they still there and blocking the flow of the coolant? You're fortunate that it is an air-cooled motor and it's a relatively simple task to pop the powerhead off of the leg and clean out the chamber surrounding the lower bearing/seal. On a water-cooled motor you can imagine all of the turns, nooks and crannies and restrictions in a waterjacket where they could lodge. Which is--of course---the reason that the first job after verifying that a recently acquired old motor is savable is rebuilding the waterpump!
Good luck! Tom

EDIT: Dang! You two type quickly!

 

[chuckm51]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

My frustration level is approaching.
The spritzing water out of the weep holes seem cool enough.
I used a screwdriver in the plug hole to ascertain tdc. On the crans shoulder are 2 marks, a triangle and 2 hash marks. TDC seems to be between them. I rigged up a test light and guesstimated the btdc and atdc numbers called for in the manual using these 2 reference marks. Now the engine barely runs and still won't run at anything like full speed. The throttle has essentially no effect.
I am wondering about the carb intake gasket. Didn't replace it and I noticed the gasket is mangled where the lower hole is in the carb and gasket. I am wondering if the bad gasket is affecting the vacuum to the carb.
I pulled the plug and it is covered with black soot. Rich condition? Or too much starting spray?
I guess I'll break down and buy the dial indicator and holder, and make the exact adjustments.
I have one big question: the manual talks about setting the piston at certain spots btdc and atdc, but it doesn't say where the throttle should be when measuring the position of the piston/crank. Changing the throttle position changes the timing reference to the crank, and affects when the points open and close. Does it matter where the throttle is when determining btdc and atdc?
I did find that the cam follower attached to the throttle valve was binding on the cam 1/4" before the throttle lever reached the throttle stop. I had to adjust the cam to overcome that.
It seems the adjustments for the timing and throttle advance have to be very exact for it to run right. A dial indicator may be critical. Oh well.

Chuck in Austin
Forget Hotlanta, it's Hotaustin.

 

[chuckm51]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

Oh, yea, The cool-looking special Tecumseh tool for setting the timing is for the solid state magneto. No joy there. I guess I learn how to use the dial indicator, as well as learning how to pop the head off the leg to clean out the water passages. I was expecting a steady stream of water out the water exit holes, not spritzing like I'm getting.

 

[chuckm51]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

And, I now have a dang blister on my left hand twixt my index and middle fingers from yanking on the rope. Burns pretty good.

 

[Tommy Two Stroke]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

Oh, yea, The cool-looking special Tecumseh tool for setting the timing is for the solid state magneto. No joy there. I guess I learn how to use the dial indicator, as well as learning how to pop the head off the leg to clean out the water passages. I was expecting a steady stream of water out the water exit holes, not spritzing like I'm getting.

You won't get a steady stream out those holes - spritz is indeed what you'll see. I just brought my 7.5hp back from the brink of death and started it up over the weekend for the first time, with a fresh water pump impeller, new o-rings on the water pump line, and a cleaned out water passageway next to the lower main seal, and the water only spritzes out those two holes. I think what you're seeing is normal.

 

[Tom @ Buzzard Bluff]

Re: Eska 5hp ignition

<The spritzing water out of the weep holes seem cool enough.>

In which case if you can tell that it did remove some heat you may have time to get the new gaskets in hand before removing the powerhead to check for blockage. You may get lucky and find that none of the pieces of the old impeller lodged but in any case you'll then KNOW that there is no residual cooling problems from the event.

<I am wondering about the carb intake gasket. Didn't replace it and I noticed the gasket is mangled where the lower hole is in the carb and gasket. I am wondering if the bad gasket is affecting the vacuum to the carb>

If it is leaking you'll run out of hair to pull without getting a good running motor. Go ahead and replace before further trouble-shooting attempts.

<I pulled the plug and it is covered with black soot. Rich condition?>

Too rich or poor combustion---maybe from poor ignition.

<Or too much starting spray?>

I certainly hope you aren't using ether in a 2 cycle engine! Not only does the 'starting fluid' normally sold in auto and big box stores contain no lubricant but it will wash any remaining pre-mix from the cylinder walls or anything else you spray it on. Can you say "Highly accelerated wear"? Find an old spray bottle and use pre-mix in it!

<It seems the adjustments for the timing and throttle advance have to be very exact for it to run right.>

They do to make it dead on but the 'shadetree, eyeball' method is to make sure the lever that controls the throttle butterfly starts moving near mid range of the ignition advance lever and is fully opened by the time the advance lever reaches the end of the range of advance. It won't be 'on the money' but it should start and run there and you can fine it down.

<I was expecting a steady stream of water out the water exit holes, not spritzing like I'm getting.>

No steady stream---a heavy spritz with detectable heat is in the ball park.

<I now have a dang blister on my left hand twixt my index and middle fingers from yanking on the rope.>

A motor that won't start with a half dozen pulls from cold has a problem. Stop pulling and find out why. Blisters are a sign of hard-headed frustration.