Ethanol in Engines

[jka]

Here's an interesting article I thought I'd share on the dangers of ethanol blended gasoline:

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=488180

 

[marunr]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

My boat has a sticker next to the fill cap saying do not use an alcohol blended fuel. What are we to do when that becomes the only option?

 

[MelLandry]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

My boat has a sticker next to the fill cap saying do not use an alcohol blended fuel. What are we to do when that becomes the only option?

Don't fret... There will always be someone out there willing to take a lot of your money for a boutique gas you really need. LIkely they'll be the stations on the water that we all avoid now due to the high costs of marine fuel taxes.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

Marunr -- what's your power plant, what age., and fuel tank material?

 

[bjcsc]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

Seems to only be a problem if you have a fiberglass fuel tank...

 

[FreeBeeTony]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

I think I may alter my winterizing setps this year and not fill the tank prior to putting the boat up for storage.

Seems the way to go is to run it as close to empty as possible to minimize the amount of water in the fuel next season.

 

[marunr]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

Marunr -- what's your power plant, what age., and fuel tank material?

2.3l OMC Cobra..1988. The tank is metal...I assume aluminum.

 

[DHPMARINE]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

Aren't all marine engines manufactured to run on 10% ethanol? Isn't tht he MAX that the EPA allows?

DHP

 

[bjcsc]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

I think I may alter my winterizing setps this year and not fill the tank prior to putting the boat up for storage.

Seems the way to go is to run it as close to empty as possible to minimize the amount of water in the fuel next season.

Bad idea. The water you accumulate comes from condensation when the temp. of the air in your tank changes. It is not an inverse relationship, i.e. more air = more condensation...

 

[MelLandry]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

Aren't all marine engines manufactured to run on 10% ethanol? Isn't tht he MAX that the EPA allows?

DHP

Have you missed all the yellow fuel capped bowtie commercials for cars that run on E85? That's 85% ethonol, 15% gasoline.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

E-85 is not for use in marine engines at this point in time. E-10 will not be a problem unless you have a fiberglass tank (not plastic) or you have an older vessel with a fuel system that has been ignored over time. Ethanol is a great fuel system cleaner. It loosens all sorts of crud that tends to plug fuel filters. The up side is that once the filters have removed all the junk, the engine., whether its in a car or boat, will live happily on E-10. We've burned E-10 since 1997 in Minnesota. Treat the fuel with SeaFoam or Stabil for storage just as you should have done before E-10 came along.

 

[DHPMARINE]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

Don't know where they are selling the E-85.
Is it available on the east coast yet ?

I accually didn't think it was in pumps yet,at least here in the US.

DHP

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

you think your boat drinks fuel now? wait till your boating with E-85 at 4 dollars+ a gallon .

 

[180shabah]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

Don't know where they are selling the E-85.
Is it available on the east coast yet ?

I accually didn't think it was in pumps yet,at least here in the US.

DHP

It is availabe, and has been for several years in the midwest.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

Yes - E-85 is currently available in the midwest and I use it in my new Impala. The problem with E-85 is that it needs to be a minimum of 38 cents/gal cheaper than regular to make it worth while since fuel economby is far less although the car performs better with it. Depending on the vehicle, fuel flow must be increased almost 30%. The price of E-85 generally tracks the price of regular gas. It should track the price of corn from which its made. And even then its subsidized heavily so E-85 is not the saving grace its cracked up to be.

 

[180shabah]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

You are absolutely right, ethanol only has about 3/4 btu/gal that gasoline has. Thus the need for for higher fuel flow and reduced economy. However, the real problem with ethanol is that it is being produced from corn. Corn is one of the worst crops for ethanol production, and even with the subsidies, the cost per gallon is still to high to be a viable alternative fuel.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

and wait until a flood or drought hits and watch that ethanol go nuts.
ethanol may be a viable fuel in some areas for some instituions and equipments but its a sheer waste of time in its presant form.
but once we delete all farm subsidies for corn and allow the sugarcane farmers in the south to compete the price may drop a dime.
the stoicometric air/fuel ratio for alchohol is almost 2 times that of gas. that means it takes roughly twice as much for a given amount of air to burn correctly.
the actual cost of ethanol from corn is actually quite staggering.
so keep the corn for food and lets look at alternate alcohol crops that are much less energy intensive to produce and can be reliably produced in either weather extreme.
but given the octane rating of alcohol is about 100 you can run smaller displacement engines at much higher compression ratios than gas at 87 octane.
the high octane of alcohol coupled with modern engine management controls will allow compression ratios in the 11-12 to 1 ratio.
but until it makes a profit for the automakers and oil companies we will never actually see a viable alternate to oil for many years.
brazils ethanol program is quite amazing, however there growing season is year round and the climate is perfect for surgar canes and other high sugar low cost crops.

 

[jka]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

well, i have to dispute all those who claim that e85 is a lot more in price. in fact, here in wisconsin...it was running about 2.10 a gallon.....when regular unleaded was 3.03 a week ago.
those that run it in their pickups and cars report....no issues. i haven't heard of anyone running it in a boat. I know I won't.

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

how heavily is E-85 subsidized at this point and how long will the subsidy last?
gasoline,95 octane unleaded, in venezueala is about 15 cents per gallon but its govt subsidized,

 

[rodbolt]

Re: Ethanol in Engines

face it, that 5.7 chevy moves 5.7 liters of air each crank complete reveloution. at 14/1 air- fuel on gas and ethanol is roughly 7.5/1 air- fuel.
seeing how that 5.7 is an air pump it takes roughly twice as much ethanol to move 5.7 liters for every revolution as it does gas.
have a nice day.
as far as the acetone disscusion, acetone actually has a lower BTU and heat relaese than gasoline so its not a particularly good driving fuel either. plus its vapor pressure and low boiling point makes it difficult to use with a vented carburated system.
most all fuel burning articulated rod moptors air air pumps. its just that simple.
some fuels like diesel and kerosene are constant combustion fuels and the air/fuel ration can vary between about 40/1 to about 175/1 depending on the application and power output requirements. with gasoline much above 16/1 or below 12/1 and the flame goes out and the engine quits.
its a simple matter of the physical properties of the fuels used in a particular engine design.