Ethanol Question

[mech1521]

I have heard from a few merc. guys in here, and they seem to agree the ethanol added gas from the auto pumps will tear up my powerhead( along with other problems). What is the best additive for two strokes? Is it also true that gas from boat ramps are (safe) or lower in ethanol than pumps for automobiles. two last questions, does anyone know the the safe limit of ethanol in gas to advoid any problems like this. I live in southern NJ, and don't know if, or what the levels are of ethanol in the summer months. Any info is appreciated.

 

[RRitt]

Re: Ethanol Question

In Florida some marinas sell recreational grade gasoline. It does not have any ethanol.

 

[Barnacle_Bill]

Re: Ethanol Question

IMHO ethanol problems are highly over exaggerated. I believe all outboard manufacturers say that it is safe to run E-10 in your motor. If you have a very old motor you should replace all the rubber in it to be safe. By law pumps are required to show how much ethanol is in their gas. As for additives we have been on ethanol for over 12 years now and I have had no problems using Sea Foam in it. Also install a good water seperator filter (rated at 10 microns or better) on you motor. Racor makes an excellent one.

 

[dew2]

Re: Ethanol Question

I stay away from ethonol!! Alcohol attracts and mixes with water,Here in Minnesota a hotrod assn has listings of all gas stations that supply Nonoxy or nonethanol fuel.Its not hard to stay away from it! I experience problems with the water it holds.Auto engines are built to use ethanol I dont know about outboards being built for it? Mine run poorly with it and my small engines constantly need carb work.I avoid it except for engines that were made to use it.

 

[JB]

Re: Ethanol Question

I agree with bhile. A few adjustments and late model outboards don't know the difference. Older outboards benefit from conversion. All outboards need water seperating fuel filters.

Too many boaters have become unreasonably paranoid but unwilling to make the changes that make ethanol transparent.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Ethanol Question

Over here in Eastern Pa, we use 10% ethanol and the engines don't even know it is there. Over in Jersey ( wrong side--dirty side) I believe you also use 10% ethanol. You know: An engine is an engine! Pistons and cylinders are basically pistons and cylinders. There is no magic to it. Yeah, rubber parts and plastic parts need to be formulated to resist ethanol and there is a SMALL loss of mileage with 10% ethanol. But on the other hand, ethanol raises knock resistance and will also deliver a VERY SLIGHT, almost unnoticeable increase in power.

True--Ethanol does tend to absorb water so I would not leave a 30 or 90 gallon tank full over the winter. But if you use your boat regularly you should not have any problems.

Rumors of your demise are highly exaggerated. Use whatever gasoline you want to use. Me? I religiously use the cheapest pump gas I can find---usually Wawa.

 

[Silvertip]

Re: Ethanol Question

An auto engine is no different than the auto engine that is in an I/O. Get educated on ethanol and stop listeniing to those who "claim" to have had problems blamed on ethanol that wasn't ethanol related at all but rather fuel system neglect. I happen to run E-85 with no issues so your concern is unfounded. Pay attention to the fuel system and E-10 will not be a problem. Add Stabil or SeaFoam (available at Fleet Farm or at nearly any auto store in Minnesota and you won't have fuel system problems if you run E-10 or regular gas. Engines don't die -- their owners kill them.

 

[boater1234]

Re: Ethanol Question

There is some stuff here in fl that is very popular.It's called sentry.The site is sentrytreatments.com.I have used that stuff since it came out and it is by far the best you can find imo.I have used it in my car,lawnmower,boat and anything that runs on gas,2 or 4 stroke.My truck gets lousy mileage even hwy.I used one dose of that stuff and it gave me almost 80 extra miles.Check it out for yourself as you can order it the way you want.I get 5 gallon pals of it as that is the cheapest way to go.It's a little on the pricey side but it will eliminate any fuel problems.

 

[F_R]

Re: Ethanol Question

I fill up at the cheapest gas station I can find, and they all have Ethanol in it. Ethanol has been in gas for many years, and it hasn't hurt my 27 year old motor yet. By current law, ethanol is limited to 10% (except E85), and all modern motors are built to run on it.

The news is they are thinking of increasing it to 15%. Now the fight can really continue.

 

[dingbat]

Re: Ethanol Question

Over here in Eastern Pa, we use 10% ethanol and the engines don't even know it is there. Over in Jersey ( wrong side--dirty side) I believe you also use 10% ethanol. You know: An engine is an engine! Pistons and cylinders are basically pistons and cylinders. There is no magic to it. Yeah, rubber parts and plastic parts need to be formulated to resist ethanol and there is a SMALL loss of mileage with 10% ethanol. But on the other hand, ethanol raises knock resistance and will also deliver a VERY SLIGHT, almost unnoticeable increase in power.

True--Ethanol does tend to absorb water so I would not leave a 30 or 90 gallon tank full over the winter. But if you use your boat regularly you should not have any problems.

Rumors of your demise are highly exaggerated. Use whatever gasoline you want to use. Me? I religiously use the cheapest pump gas I can find---usually Wawa.

+1.

 

[mech1521]

Re: Ethanol Question

Hey Frank, You're right, the Del Mem river is so dirty my toilet is cleaner, but thanks for the input about ethanol.

 

[Silver Heels]

Re: Ethanol Question

Over here in Eastern Pa, we use 10% ethanol and the engines don't even know it is there. Over in Jersey ( wrong side--dirty side) I believe you also use 10% ethanol. You know: An engine is an engine! Pistons and cylinders are basically pistons and cylinders. There is no magic to it. Yeah, rubber parts and plastic parts need to be formulated to resist ethanol and there is a SMALL loss of mileage with 10% ethanol. But on the other hand, ethanol raises knock resistance and will also deliver a VERY SLIGHT, almost unnoticeable increase in power.

True--Ethanol does tend to absorb water so I would not leave a 30 or 90 gallon tank full over the winter. But if you use your boat regularly you should not have any problems.

Rumors of your demise are highly exaggerated. Use whatever gasoline you want to use. Me? I religiously use the cheapest pump gas I can find---usually Wawa.

When you wrote "increase in power" was this a typo??? If not, where do you get your info from? Everything I have ever heard about ethanol has been to the contrary. That is why milage has been proven by automakers to be decreased as ethanol content goes up. Less energy means flex fuel vehicles travel less on a tank of e85, or e10 than straight gas. Also, I have heard about having to make "a few adjustments" on newer outboards and "older outboards benefitting from conversion" I think our moderator, JB should expand on the work and money I have to put towards my engine for these conversions and adjustments instead of glossing over it and saying I'm being "unreasonably paranoid."
-Silver Heels

 

[dingbat]

Re: Ethanol Question

When you wrote "increase in power" was this a typo??? If not, where do you get your info from? Everything I have ever heard about ethanol has been to the contrary. That is why milage has been proven by automakers to be decreased as ethanol content goes up. Less energy means flex fuel vehicles travel less on a tank of e85, or e10 than straight gas. Also, I have heard about having to make "a few adjustments" on newer outboards and "older outboards benefitting from conversion" I think our moderator, JB should expand on the work and money I have to put towards my engine for these conversions and adjustments instead of glossing over it and saying I'm being "unreasonably paranoid."
-Silver Heels

With the exception of the reduced mileage all your statements begin with "I have heard". A lot of guys are well past the "I have heard" and well into the "I have experienced".

Please evaporate on the conversions and adjustments needed to run E-10. I've been running e-10 on a "newer" outboard going on 5 years and have yet to convert or adjust anything. Perhaps I?m missing something?

 

[Silver Heels]

Re: Ethanol Question

With the exception of the reduced mileage all your statements begin with "I have heard". A lot of guys are well past the "I have heard" and well into the "I have experienced".

Please evaporate on the conversions and adjustments needed to run E-10. I've been running e-10 on a "newer" outboard going on 5 years and have yet to convert or adjust anything. Perhaps I?m missing something?

The conversions andf adjustment comment came from another post from JB. I too am asking about what these are.

 

[Frank Acampora]

Re: Ethanol Question

Silverheels: Please do not misquote me. NOTICE that I said VERY SLIGHT, ALMOST UNNOTICEABLE increase in power. It has nothing to do with loss of mileage which is because ethanol has less BTU than gasoline and must therefore run richer. Ethanol burns slower than gasoline and has a higher octane level. Low molecular weight alcohols when properly jetted provide more power than gasoline but way less mileage. Why do you think fuel dragsters use methanol and are classed differently than gassers? For less power? True, top fuel dragsters use mostly nitro, but it provides the oxygen to burn the alcohol.

Now, lets put the great ethanol debate to rest and just run our boats. You people on the gasoline only side use whatever you want to use and I'll use what I normally do: E10. And when E15 comes out, I'll use that too!

 

[Home Cookin']

Re: Ethanol Question

back to a general answer for the general question--a newer OB can handle E-10 fine, if it's fresh. The problems come from the fuel deteriorating and absorbing water with age (months). Older OB's have problems with the fuel lines and sometimes tanks not standing up to the ethanol, but not the engine block itself.
Do not run higher than E-10.
Second question: marina gas is not necessarily low ethanol. Some sell it b/c boaters want it, right or wrong (I vote "right"). But marina gas can have water in it (as can gas stations) if its systems are old or not well maintained, and obviously the opportunity for exposure to water is greater. Also, if a marina doesn't sell much, its inventory can go stale. So the answer is, it depends on the marina; I avoid marina gas but I am set up so I can.

 

[H20Rat]

Re: Ethanol Question

When you wrote "increase in power" was this a typo??? If not, where do you get your info from? Everything I have ever heard about ethanol has been to the contrary. ... Less energy means flex fuel vehicles travel less on a tank of e85, or e10 than straight gas

I'll second the 'more power' statement, but with an asterik. In my car (subaru turbo charged 4 cylinder), I gain about 30 ft/lb of torque and 20 hp at the wheels with a 30-40% ethanol blend, compared to straight 91 octane. I'm at around 270 hp at the wheels, close to 290 with the ethanol tune. That is in the neighborhood of 400 hp at the crank on a little 2.0liter 4 cylinder daily driver!

So the asterik is that this engine has had some very specific tuning for that fuel blend. I'm running substantially bigger injectors, bigger fuel pump, as well has a custom computer tune that raises timing and boost levels. Ethanol has lower energy content, but also has a fairly high octane rating, so timing and boost can go up (essentially the efficiency per BTU of energy input increases with ethanol). My mileage on that tune vs 91 octane is almost identical.

It ends up performing in a somewhat similar manner to water injection. On the surface, you would never think that spraying water down the carb/intake of an engine would increase power. But with careful tuning, it can have a SUBSTANTIAL increase in power.

All that said, without tuning and the hardware behind it, just dumping in ethanol will NOT increase power unless the engine was running extremely rich before. Ethanol fuel will run more lean than straight gas.

 

[metriccrescentwrench]

Re: Ethanol Question

smokin' is on the righ track. (Although I'm wondering about more than 100 hp lost between the crank and tires).

The stoichiometric ratio of ethanol to oxygen is richer than gasoline to oxygen, so by jetting richer to get the proper air/fuel ratio you're cramming more energy into the engine on each revolution. BUT... for just E-10 that's going to be unnoticeable. I used to race go-carts, ran one class for gasoline, one for methanol (methanol needs to run even richer than ethanol) .... big difference in power for the same reason.

Getting "bad gas" didn't start happening with the advent E-10, that's been of concern ever since they first started pumping dead dinosaurs out of the ground for our motoring pleasure. I've experienced "bad gas" one time in an outboard engine, and that was before I put fuel/water filter-separators on my boats and started using fuel treatment. Since then I've had zero problems, and believe that those two preventive measures will prevent nearly all of the so-called ethanol problems in boats.

 

[1979checkmate]

Re: Ethanol Question

i have to disagree with many of the people on this forum. I DO NOT RUN ETHANOL in my outboard. I have a 1979 mercury inline 6 (115 hp). Alcohol is hydrophillic, which means it absorbs water. When moisture gets into a fuel tank, the alcohol bonds to the moisture and falls to the bottom. Are you seeing the problem yet? With older motors (like mine), when this happens the motor simply starts running very poorly, and gives you a chance to drain the gas, newer computerized outboards, however, will run just fine on this mix of alcohol and water. This becomes especially a problem in 2 stroke outboards. 2 stroke oil, especially when mixed rather than injected, is bonded to the gasoline...which is setting on top of the alcohol/water mixture if moisture has been introduced into the gas tank. So while your motor may run fine for a while on the alcohol/water mix.. there is one essential ingredient that a 2 stroke isnt getting...it's oil! At least here in missouri..getting ethanol free fuel is very easy (i imagine many other states are the same- you will have to check) In missouri, all fuel sold as "premium" grade is ethanol-free. Sure it costs a few cents/gal more to purchase.. but it is cheap insurance. As far as additives go.. they dont do anything about the ethanol, they are only a dispersant that keeps the ethanol and water from settling. They are better than nothing, but for me it is cheaper to just run better fuel rather than cheap fuel with an expensive additive. If you have an i/o or four stroke outboard, it is safer to run ethanol fuel because these engines have a separate lube system. Oh and by the way, both OMC and Mercury do NOT recommend running ethanol fuel in their marine engines.

 

[gss036]

Re: Ethanol Question

I buy my gas at Costco here and they have only been carrying Ethanol for a short period of time. I run a 1999Chev Silverado (V-8), 2009 VW Jetta (5 cylinder) and a 2008 225 Honda V-6 on my boat. They all run perfectly well but I have noticed about 1 MPG loss is economy on the vehicles. I have a fuel flow gauge on on my boat and I can see a slight increase in the GPH. We have and I guess we will just have to live with it.
I had a guy at the dock yesterday bending my ear about Ethanol and he had to change out all the rubber on his Johnson 150 V-6. He was also saying that he had removed 2 gallons of water out a 100 gal tank. I guess that would be a lot. When I ran my boat yesterday it had sat in the barn for 3 months full of treated gas and it ran perfect(if that is possible).